Greetings and hallucinations salutations, O Fair and Friendly Rereaders! (No greetings if you’re unfair or unfriendly? Hmmm… maybe I’d better rethink that greeting.) Welcome back to the Oathbringer Reread, where we’re about to watch Shallan get creative in her efforts to document what they’re seeing in Kholinar. Also, lots of information about what’s going on in the city. Information! Lots of information! Not, unfortunately, all the information, though; some, we’re still guessing.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the entire novel in each reread. This week, the post only includes a nod to the upcoming Worldhopper Revelation without really talking about it. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Shallan
WHERE: Kholinar, in the home of Adolin’s tailors (L: No map this week, as they don’t travel anywhere…) (AA: Yeah, we don’t really need the map to show us Shallan wandering back and forth between two rooms while everyone else sits in chairs.)
WHEN: 1174.1.10.2 (same day as Chapter 61)
Chapter Sixty-Two begins with a lengthy discussion of the state of the city and what’s been happening in Kholinar. Before the Everstorm, the city was full of riots. Queen Aesudan issued a proclamation to execute all of the parshmen in the city. She also ordered the execution of an ardent who was questioning her. After the Everstorm hit, the palace was coated in gloom and things began getting progressively worse. Brightlords who went to the palace to speak to the queen never returned. Neither did the soldiers who were stationed there. A group known as the Cult of Moments are dressing up as spren and parading through the city, insisting that a new time is coming, one in which the spren will rule the world. If people attempt to use fabrials, Voidspren sweep out of the sky, bringing with them Fused who confiscate the fabrials and sometimes kill the users. On top of all this, some of the spren of the city are appearing as strange corruptions rather than their usual forms.
Having learned all of this, Elhokar decides to send Shallan in a disguise to the palace with a sealed letter for Aesudan, with Kaladin along to keep an eye on her. She reveals her alter-ego of Veil to her followers, then heads out into the city.
Truth, Love, and Defiance
Title: Research
AA: This is another of those few titles that isn’t a direct quote from the chapter. Shallan thinks about the research Jasnah and Navani are doing on the Unmade, but that’s not really in focus here. The team is questioning the tailor to figure out what’s going on in the city because they need information; it’s kept from being an infodump partly by Shallan’s… creative… research methods regarding the corrupted spren in the city.
Heralds
Vedel and Shalash.
AA: Shalash is pretty obvious, as the Lightweaver Herald. However, with her associated divine attributes of Creative and Honest, the corrupted spren could be considered an opposite. Also, blood, which Shallan… well, we’ll get to that.
Vedel is the Healer, patron of Edgedancers, with the attributes Loving and Healing. Shallan injuring and then healing herself could be part of the reason.
Icon
The Pattern icon tells us that this will be Shallan’s point of view.
Epigraph
I wish to submit my formal protest at the idea of abandoning the tower. This is an extreme step, taken brashly.
—From drawer 2-22, smokestone
AA: Apparently this Skybreaker, unlike the previous, does care. About something, anyway! As one who can fly, Urithiru is a perfect base. I wonder if they were starting to have trouble with the Oathgates? That might have made other Orders want to leave the tower, if their normal means of travel was unreliable, but wouldn’t really bother the Windrunners, Skybreakers, and (likely) Elsecallers. Sheer speculation, obviously, but it’s another thing to watch for.
L: Yeah, this is an interesting one. Since it’s a Skybreaker (the only Order to remain intact after the Recreance), I would imagine that this takes place just after the Recreance has occurred. Like Alice, this is sheer speculation on my part, but I wonder if the rest of the Orders have abandoned Urithiru at this point and it’s just the Skybreakers left there. Or… perhaps something more sinister is going on? (Who knows how long the Midnight Mother was in residence, for instance…)
Stories & Songs
“When that new storm came, the one with the red lightning, it left a gloom over the palace.”
L: Interesting that the Unmade appears to have traveled with the Everstorm…
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AA: Except that as we’ll discuss very shortly, that doesn’t make sense with what we already know. Hmm.
“In the middle of the rioting, a proclamation came from the queen. Oh, Your Majesty. She wanted to execute the city’s parshmen! Well, we all thought she must be—I’m sorry—but we thought she must be mad. Poor things. What have they ever done? That’s what we thought. We didn’t know.
“Well, the queen posted criers all over the city, proclaiming the parshmen to be Voidbringers… She didn’t even seem to notice that half of the city was rioting!”
L: This is really odd. We know that Dalinar & co. sent her a warning about this, but if she’s being controlled by an Unmade by this time (presumably a different one from the one who showed up along with the Everstorm), then why was it undermining Odium’s efforts like this?
AA: The timeline has been driving me crazy! We know that the Interlude with Lhan and Pai happened during the Weeping, and it’s pretty clear that Ashertmarn was already in residence—the Heart of the Revel. My best guess is that Aesudan’s actions (and those of her court and ardentia) weren’t really controlled by it, but instead were heavily influenced by it. When she got the message from Dalinar, she issued the proclamation; I’d suggest that in keeping with the “all things in excess” nature of Ashertmarn, she ordered them to be executed, not just exiled as Dalinar and Elhokar had said. It’s the same sort of overreaction as executing Pai, maybe.
Anyway, a few days afterward, the Everstorm came across, transforming the parshmen outside the city with Voidspren and bringing with it… what? Fused? Sja-anat? Yelig-Nar? (I’m not sure Yelig-nar has an area effect; he seems more like a personal take-over-your-body guy.) It seems like maybe the Everstorm “fueled” Ashertmarn to greater influence, and we see plenty of evidence of Sja-anat’s presence in the corrupted spren. If the Fused actually came with the storm, it would have been very shortly afterward that they snagged themselves some Parsh bodies and shut down the spanreeds and other fabrials.
AP: I’m with you on the timeline issues, Alice. We don’t know exactly when Aesudan bonded with Yelig-Nar. She may not have been under its influence when she issued the order to execute the Parshmen. It would fit with the excess of Ashertmarn. On that note, Pai’s extreme decision to publicly denounce the Queen fits that pattern as well. As a reminder, Pai was the ardent who first appeared in Words of Radiance in Interlude 1-12. She was part of the Devotary of Denial, and was ordered to join Aesudan’s retinue. She had a discussion with another ardent about the excesses of the nobles in Kholinar, and in particular, she was shown a pile of rotting food that should have been given to the poor. After, she is given time to think about her place and potential to do good, but would also be tacitly endorsing the Queen’s behavior. She instead decides to do a truly epic call out, and is executed as a result. It’s possible that both Pai and Aesudan were under the influences of the Unmade when they made their decisions. I also like the idea that the Everstorm heightened the power of the Unmade already in residence, rather than bringing them to the city in the first place. I think Alice is on the right track there.
AA: Yay! Good to know my wispy theory has merit. ;) We’re guessing, but it makes so much sense that an almost mindless Unmade like Ashertmarn would be strengthened significantly by the arrival of the Everstorm, all chock full of Odium’s investiture, just waiting to be sucked in and deployed.
If the tailor was correct about the dark spren arriving during the Everstorm, then Aesudan had executed the ardent on her own—as that had happened before. Likewise, the order to exile the parshmen would also have come before the Everstorm.
L: Shallan’s not even entertaining the possibility that there may be more than one Unmade in the city.
AA: It’s shortsighted, but understandable. To be fair, one Unmade is quite enough to be getting on with, let alone even thinking about two!
AP: Let alone the three we know are there!
Relationships & Romances
“Take a deep breath, Yokska,” Adolin said gently. Even his voice was adorable.
AA: ::gigglesnort::
She ended up sprawled on the floor, skirts up about her waist—and she wasn’t even wearing the leggings today. Her safehand bulged out from between the sleeve buttons, poking into the open right in front of not just the king, but Kaladin and Adolin.
AA: This may or may not have any significance at all, but why does she specifically think about Kaladin? The king is The King, and Adolin is her betrothed, but why should she care about Kaladin that much? Is this another hint at the Veil/Shallan/Kaladin/Adolin triangle-with-four-sides (or is it a square-with-three-sides?) problem?
Bruised & Broken
“Do not fear reprisal. I must know what the city’s people think.”
L: Here’s a mark of a good leader. I really believe that he’s actively trying to live up to the good examples he’s seen around him (::cough Kaladin cough::) and turn over a new leaf in regards to his leadership.
“Mmmm,” Pattern said. “Destruction. This… this is not normal for you, Shallan. Too far.” … “He buzzed, worried, but he needn’t have been, as Shallan had what she wanted.
L: I really appreciate Pattern being so concerned for her well-being after seeing what appeared on the outside to be an act of self-harm. Storms know that he has good reason to be worried about her mental state…
AP: Definitely true. But also she took a tailor’s fabric scissors to stab herself! AND she didn’t even clean them off afterward! ::shudder::
L: If someone used my fabric scissors to stab someone, they’d be getting stabbed themselves next!
AA: Maybe Brandon just forgot to tell us she cleaned them? Because poor Yokska, if the next thing she finds when these surprise visitors finish interrogating her is blood all over her fabric shears. “Adolin, I trust you and you’re a delight to dress, but some of these people you brought are seriously bizarre.”
Also, I looked back at the beta comments, and Pattern wasn’t the only one worrying that Shallan was going to start down the self-harm path. There were some very worried readers.
That, she thought, might be the craziest thing you’ve ever done. Which is saying a lot.
L: I’m a little disturbed by the fact that she thinks that showing a little leg/finger is worse than, oh… stabbing herself in the leg, or slitting her own wrist in book 1, or, you know… THE MULTIPLE DIFFERENT PERSONALITIES SHE IS CONCOCTING FOR HERSELF.
AA: I’m just sitting here laughing. “Which is saying a lot” indeed! She’s got some funky priorities, our Shallan. But in terms of crazy-shenanigan-ness, she’s got a point!
Oh, ugh. I’m adding this too late for Lyndsey and Aubree to respond to it, but it occurs to me that Shallan only considers “crazy things I’ve done” as “things someone else saw me do.” Anything she does in private, no matter how stupid or dangerous, can just be ignored and “forgotten” like she’s forgotten so much else.
“But that slave brand…” She reached up to create an illusion to make it vanish from his forehead.
He caught the hand. “No need. I’ll keep my hair down over it.”
L: Oh, Kaladin. You and your insistence on seeing that brand as an integral part of you.
“I had it reversed. I thought Brightness Shallan was the persona. But the spy—that’s the false identity.”
“Wrong,” Shallan said. “They’re both equally false.”
L: Shallan. No. Ugh.
AA: Sigh. Poor girl has no idea who the real Shallan might be anymore.
AP: This is really concerning. She is putting on a facade of a “proper” lighteyes woman in front of her people. But to go so far as to say the entire identity of Shallan is false is concerning. I hope she has time to figure out who she is. Not just who other people want or expect her to be.
“We don’t need Dalinar’s permission to act,” Elhokar said. … “What is my uncle going to do, Captain? Dalinar won’t know any more than we will. We either do something about Kholinar ourselves now, or give the city, the Oathgate, and my family up to the enemy.”
Shallan agreed, and even Kaladin nodded slowly.
AA: Again, Elhokar is stepping up as a leader. Kaladin’s instinct was to just go back and check with Dalinar, but Elhokar is right—there’s nothing Dalinar could do about it that this team can’t. I love watching the way Elhokar is growing in this chapter: He’s still watching Kaladin for a role model, but he’s also becoming a little more able to recognize when his own training is giving him the right answer. He’s trying so hard to guard against being impetuous and stupid, but along with that he’s realizing that there are times that he himself knows more about the situation they face than Kaladin can. (I just kind of wish he’d look to Adolin a little more. I understand why he doesn’t, but Adolin understands the city and the lighteyes in ways that Kaladin simply can’t.)
“Waiting and trusting those whom you have empowered is the soul of kingship, Windrunner,” Elhokar said.
AA: Well said, Elhokar. More and more with every chapter, I find myself liking Elhokar. SANDERSSSOOOOOONNNN!!
Squires & Sidekicks
“How much did you eavesdrop on?” Shallan asked them.
“Not much,” Vathah said, thumbing over his shoulder. “We were too busy watching Ishnah ransack the tailor’s bedroom to see if she was hiding anything.”
“Tell me you didn’t make a mess.”
“No mess,” Ishnah promised. “And nothing to report either. The woman might actually be as boring as she seems. The boys did learn some good search procedures though.”
AA: … I was just going to quote this as “Shallan’s team is doing its thing.” Then it occurred to me: I’ll bet there will come a time in the next book or so when these ‘good search procedures” will turn out to be foreshadowing. Am I wrong?
Also, it cracked me up that they took her revelation about being Veil so nonchalantly.
Places & Peoples
I’ve had Passion for something to happen, true, but to finally… I mean…
AP: A reminder here that the Thaylen religious beliefs are tied up with Passion too! I think there’s definitely a historical connection to Odium here that we don’t know enough about yet.
Similar finished coats were displayed around the showroom. They were made in bright colors—even brighter than the Alethi wore at the Shattered Plains—with gold or silver thread, shiny buttons, and elaborate embroidery on the large pockets. The coats didn’t close at the front except for a few below the collar, while the sides flared out, then split into tails at the back.
L: Dropping this in here partly because of the social aspect of the Alethi preferring bright colors and flamboyant designs, but mostly as a note for my fellow cosplayers. ;) By the description, these seem to be similar to 18th century frock coats, but with tails. I have to admit I adore the Alethi style—it’s very militaristic while still being fashionable, with the additions of the embroidery and buttons to add flair.
She was surprised at the running water; she hadn’t thought Kholinar had such things.
L: I’m surprised at her surprise on this; I always kind of thought that Kholinar was viewed by the other countries as being pretty advanced when it came to technology. Also, obviously this isn’t run by fabrial technology, which is actually pretty surprising to me. Usually Sanderson’s very good about utilizing the inherent magic in a world to explain variant ways that society has invented technology, so I’m a bit curious about the fact that mundane methods of achieving running water were apparently easier/more achievable than doing the same via some form of magic.
AA: I don’t know… Before the return of the Radiants, all they had for magic-powering stuff was fabrials. I could be wrong, but it seems like they’re only now beginning to really develop their understanding of the Surges and how they can be used to manipulate matter in useful ways. I think it’s a case of them being limited by the inherited “ancient” fabrials—the ones the Radiants left behind, like Soulcasters; it took a while to figure out not only how to make them, but to come up with ideas for what kinds of things they could do. Didn’t Navani say that it was only recently that they learned how to trap spren? (I should look this up…)
AP: Various types of plumbing have been around since ancient times. I don’t think this level of technology should be a surprise for Shallan. What may be a surprise is that a commoner has access to it, and it would speak to her skills that she would have such a luxury in her home.
L: I’m not sure how much a “commoner” this woman is, if she’s making outfits for the Highprince himself… Upper-middle class perhaps?
AP: Even so, the White House didn’t get plumbing until the 1830s. It was very expensive.
AA: For what it’s worth, Kharbranth (at least the palace) had running water. It was kept warm in the bath by heating fabrials, but it arrived via what appears to be normal mechanically-powered plumbing, and it came in warm. But let’s not forget that Shallan didn’t grow up with running water, and the brief time she spent in Kharbranth is her only experience with it. It may be one of those things that will always surprise her just a little.
“But the real power in the city is the Cult of Moments.”
“Those people we saw in the street?” Adolin asked. “Dressed like spren.”
[…]
“Some have started claiming they see a new world coming, a truly strange new world. One ruled by spren.”
L: If the Radiants rise again, they’re not entirely wrong.
AA: Not… entirely.
AP: So this makes me wonder if there is perhaps a Truthwatcher leading this? Who is perhaps having visions they do not yet understand? Just doing what their spren tells them to do?
Tight Butts and Coconuts
The only thing for Shallan to do, then, was punch herself in the face.
L: Something that some of her haters wouldn’t question her on, I imagine. (I’d like to point out that I am not one of those. I do find this amusing, however.)
AA: I loved the way it took about two pages to tell us why she thought punching herself in the face would be a good idea. Also, that it didn’t work.
Mundane Motivations
Jasnah would tell her to put down her sketchpad and go sit with the others—but Shallan often paid better attention with a sketchpad in her hands. People who didn’t draw never seemed to understand that.
AA: I loved that Brandon included this. I don’t draw, but I’m one of those people who pay better attention if I have something to do with my hands. It doesn’t matter if I’m taking notes (which I never look at again), doing needlework, playing solitaire, doodling… doing something, anything, with my hands helps me listen better. I feel bad about it sometimes, because it looks like I’m not paying any attention at all, but… well, if it matters that I pay attention, let me do something with my hands!
Cosmere Connections
“Highmarshal Azure?” Adolin asked. “No. But I’ve been away for years. There are bound to be many officers in the city who were promoted while the rest of us were at war.”
L: Or officers who showed up out of the blue from entirely different planets. ;)
AA: Who might that be…?
L: Who indeed.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
Painspren appeared around her, as if crawling out of the ground—like little disembodied hands. They looked skinless, made of sinew. Normally they were bright orange, but these were a sickly green. And they were also wrong… instead of human hands, these seemed to be from some kind of monster—too distorted, with claws jutting from the sinew.
L: The implications of this Unmade are really fascinating to me. Is it actually corrupting the entire spren, even in Shadesmar? Or is it just corrupting the way that people in the Physical Realm perceive it? What’s the purpose of this? Does the spren remain corrupted once the Unmade has left the vicinity, or does it go back to normal afterwards?
AP: Good questions! I hope we get a lot more information about this. How are they changed? Are they permanently becoming Odium-spren?
AA: And does she have to touch each one individually to affect them, or can she do en masse effects?
AP: I definitely think these are en masse effects, or else some of the shamespren would be petals and some glass. The spren of a corrupted type all seem to be corrupt. Another possibility is that Sja-Anat has been around longer than we thought and the hunger spren were corrupted a long time ago. I don’t think that’s the case, because someone, presumably, would have noticed. But I did want to toss it out there as a possibility.
She’s managed to glimpse some hungerspren around a refugee on their way. Oddly, those didn’t look any different. Why?
L: SO MANY QUESTIONS. Why do certain ones get corrupted and others don’t? Is it maybe something to do with negative vs. positive emotions? Do the negative ones not get corrupted because they’re already “negative?”
AP: I’m not sure that’s it. I don’t know that embarrassment/shame or pain are inherently positive emotions.
L: Yeah, this is a toughie. I thought maybe it might be like the Singers’ Rhythms? How the Voidbringer versions are “darker” versions of the original ones?
AA: And later we’ll see that not all of a given kind are affected. (I think that’s next week.) So. Many. Questions. On the bright side, I’m pretty sure we’re going to learn a lot more about Sja-anat in the next book or so!
She felt a deep blush come on, and shamespren dropped around her in a wave. Normally, they took the shape of falling red and white flower petals.
These were like pieces of broken glass.
L: Simply taking note of this as an example of another physical representation of the corruption.
“If you use a fabrial,” Yokska said, “of any sort—from spanreed, to warmer, to painrial—you’ll draw them. Screaming yellow spren that ride the wind like streaks of terrible light. They shout and swirl about you. That then usually brings the creatures from the sky, the ones with the loose clothing and long spears. They seize the fabrial, and sometimes kill the one trying to use it.”
L: Lots of interesting information to unpack here. So the Voidspren can sense it when people are using fabrials… Is this a trait all spren share, but we just haven’t seen yet? It must be a pretty far-reaching sense for them to be able to feel it anywhere in the city.
AP: We’ve talked about the theory that all fabrials have a trapped spren inside. That could be it, maybe? That they are able to sense the spren inside the fabrial?
L: That’d be pretty dark. Maybe they think they’re liberating all these poor trapped spren.
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AA: The “trapped spren” is more than a theory, though as far as we know the trapped ones are all the lesser, non-sapient spren. I’m reasonably sure the ability of the screamer-spren to find the fabrials has to do with the trapped spren, but I don’t know how they could sense it from a distance. Unless… could they be watching in the Cognitive realm, prowling the area corresponding to the city, watching for whatever they look like when the fabrials are activated? We haven’t seen that yet.
L: Also… What the heck is a painrial? Have we seen these before?
AA: Yes, we have. Navani demonstrated one on Adolin back in… TWoK, I think it was? It reduces the pain of an injury temporarily. She was experimenting with making them smaller, and was thinking in terms of making it easier for surgeons to do their job without having to drug people into oblivion first.
Sheer Speculation
“It was the execution of the ardent, Brightlord,” Yokska said. “The queen had her hanged, and…. Oh! It was so gruesome.” … “She wrote such awful things, Your Majesty. About the state of the monarchy, and the queen’s faith and…”
L: I wonder if this was entirely due to this particular ardent speaking out, or if the Unmade have a particular beef with the ardentia. It would make sense if the ardents were the first ones to figure out how to bind the Unmade into perfect gems, and if anyone was going to be the ones to figure that out, I’d put my spheres on the ardentia, with all of the research they do into similar subjects.
AP: I think, as we discussed above, that this is likely the first indications of Ashertmarn being present in the city. Both Pai making a very public display to call out Aesudan, and the queen’s response.
AA: I think we have indications soon that it was the Radiants that figured out the bit about trapping the Unmade, but I’m not positive. It does seem like the ardentia were particularly targeted, though.
Yes, she thought, taking another Memory of Elhokar. Yes, you are king. And you can live up to your father’s legacy.
L: I’m curious as to whether this is something she is just observing, or if she’s imbuing her drawing with what she wishes for him, like she did with her followers in Words of Radiance. Is she subconsciously influencing him to be a stronger leader, helping to give him more confidence and empathy? I can’t help but notice that after she does this, he starts making markedly more confident and wise comments and decisions.
AP: I took it as the latter, that she is trying to make him be better than he is, to live up to his potential.
AA: We’ll have to examine this question more in Chapter 74, when she actually does the drawing of him. ::sniffle:: (I just reread that scene, and it makes me so sad…)
Quality Quotations
“I’mfinethatwasanexperiment,” she said, ducking into the showroom and throwing herself into a seat placed there for customers. Storms, that was humiliating.
***
She climbed out the window and dropped one story to the ground, relying on her Stormlight to keep her legs from breaking.
AA: That’s a nice trick if you can do it.
Well, that about wraps it up! What are your thoughts on the corrupted spren? The timeline? The Unmade? Tell us all about it in the comments below, and join us next week as we tackle Chapter 63 where Shallan has… terminal adventures, shall we say?
Alice is happy to point out to anyone who cares that the “Stormlight 4 & 5 Outlining” progress bar has moved to 40%. (Outlining, not writing!! Gotta make sure the rest of this arc is planned out properly.) She’s equally happy to note that the Starsight third draft is in work, and a beta read is tentatively slated for February.
Lyndsey has finally started work on her Yuri Katsuki short program cosplay from Yuri!!! On Ice. She looks forward to the 1500+ sequins she’s planning to hand sew onto this monster. If you’re interested in following along on the work, check out her Facebook page.
Aubree is not letting Shallan borrow any of her sewing supplies. Not even the pinking shears.
So, something I’m curious about. Fantasy books, in general, use the old medieval style of dress. As far as I know, I haven’t read anything about underwear in Roshar. Now, the way I understand it, is that there was no underwear back in the medieval days. Women would wear something called a shift, which seemed to be just a utilitarian, thin dress underneath her normal dress. So if Shallan is sprawled on the ground, with her skirts bunched up around her waist, and not wearing any leggings, wouldn’t that imply that there was more than legs showing? And yes, I had to go there :)
I hadn’t really thought about it before, but wouldn’t fabrials actually just be capturing part of a spren? Like we saw that fear spren actually look kinda like frogs in Shadesmar and just their tongues poke through to the material plain. So if you captured one in a fabrial it would be like getting your tongue stuck in a mouse trap? If you walk around the material plain with a fabrial, is their some frog in Shadesmar being led around by their tongue?
I don’t consider myself a “shallan hater” but to me, her chapters are very defintley not my favorites. I love intrigue, but the way she goes about it, where she doesn’t even realize her consequences until it’s too late and just her attitude frustrates me to no end. A good spy would at least inform her leaders on what she is doing, so they can plan accordingly, not just go do seemingly random things, making them concerned about her, and just shrugging it off. I can’t recall, but does she even tell them about the corrupted spren, at all?
In chapter 79
Or so he believes, though I believe the only test he did was to summon his Blade (which didn’t attract the screamers). I wonder if he’s right or not. If he is, then it can’t be related to the spren in the fabrials.
I really enjoyed Elhokar in this chapter. I do agree with the above commentaries on how refreshing it is to see take command, to stick to the purpose of their mission, to observe the predicament they have fallen into and to decide the next course of action. Now, I know Kaladin is said to be The Leader within this series, but in this scene, he isn’t so impressive: his need to double-check every one of his decisions with Dalinar is annoying at best. I appreciated Elhokar pointed out to him the obvious: there is nothing Dalinar can do which they cannot do. This constant deference to Dalinar as if he were the only individual who’s opinion mattered has been grating. It definitely makes me feel sorry we lost Elhokar as he, at least, had been trying to make his own decisions, albeit not easily, and had learned it wasn’t up to Dalinar to make all of them.
So yeah, good scene with Elhokar. I too noted how important Kaladin’s approval is to him and how bizarre Adolin’s opinion isn’t. Really, this is one of those scenes where I wonder how it is others seem not to view Adolin as a leader, as someone able to take command and, more importantly, as someone who’s inputs are valid. Being King, it is expected Elhokar will have his words, even if all agree his words may not be the wisest, but it seems Adolin’s words aren’t considered… important? No one is asking *him*. They ask Kaladin, they ask Shallan, they ask Elhokar, but not Adolin.
I would however add I didn’t find it surprising Elhokar would look up more to Kaladin than Adolin. Adolin is his younger cousin, a fopish duelist (we all know how the higher ranked lighteyed population doesn’t think much of Adolin beyond his skills as a duelist), so it may be a matter of pride not to seek his approval though when he later gets it, he is proud. Odd. I however wished we had more insight on how the cousin’s relationship worked. If the narrative tells us Renarin and Jasnah have a very close relationship, it seems Adolin didn’t have much of one with either one of his cousins.
Count me in those who thought Shallan was going down the self-harm path. I will admit I dreaded this prospect and I was glad when the narrative didn’t go down this way.
Good catch on Shallan being self-conscious about Kaladin… The love triangle has definitely been messy and hard to comprehend in OB, not Brandon’s finest work.
@1: I assumed they had underwears… Just because Medieval times didn’t have them doesn’t mean they don’t have them on Roshar.
@3: Shallan’s arc is frustrating in Oathbringer. It definitely is the one critic I see pop around the most often. My thoughts are Shallan’s inner arc contributed to the slow pacing of the middle section of Oathbringer which does seem as the main critic. Even when readers complain about Shallan or about Dalinar being boring or about Kaladin not “doing much”, I came to realize they aren’t really complaining about the characters per say, they are complaining about the narrative not being well-paced. In those chapters, we are in the thick of it. The part where Shallan’s arc is completely disconnected with the other characters, where the team isn’t working as a team, where the focus is very inward despite the amazing set-up the narrative is being placed into can be difficult to get into.
I personally feel a lot of focus was put on Shallan here and most of it had little incidence on the overall narrative. I find it was misused.
So whole bunch of throughts
First, I agree that Ashertman drives people to excess without direction and that affected Aesudan. The Heart of the Revel is mindless. I feel like it was sent to Kholinar to destabilize and disrupt to make it easier to conquer when Odium marshals his forces later.
Second, I have a theory regarding Yelig-nar. I think he functions like Nightblood in so far as he only consumes the person when they actively use their power. I had re-read the scenes with Aesudan, and Amaram both using him, and the process does seem to accelerate as the abilities Yelig-nar grants are being employed. The reason I bring this up, is if I am right, then Aesudan could have bonded with Yelig-nar even as early as this chapter (as the Tor readers posit), and not worry about being consumed because she has not actively used its power till Kaladin shows up at the palace with Elhokar.
Third, I am in most definite agreement on Elhokar. I love how Brandon keeps giving us all these little tidbits and bread crumbs showing us how he is really trying to grow as a person and as a ruler. Elhokar is seeking the truth, regardless if it hurts him, so long as it means he can be a better man. I also agree that I feel Shallan is helping inspire him to be better the same way she did to her group back at the caravan.
Fourth, I believe spren corruption is permanent. Well at least, I am not saying it could not be reversed, but I do not believe there is only a range, and once Sja-anat is gone, it goes away. I say this because later we see a corrupted glory spren fly up to Shallan to send her a message from Sja-anat. So I do not think it is a range only effect. I think it lasts.
@2 toothlessjoe
I honestly have no clue. My instinct is to say the entirety would be trapped in the fabrial, and humans just see a portion in the physical realm, but the image you made of the fear spren is too hilarious to not hope is a reality. Makes you really begin to think on what would happen if that was the case depending on what “parts” of the spren we see in the physical realm lolol
@@.-@ Nazrax
I have to check, but doesn’t Kaladin using his gravitation briefly later attract the screamers? I feel that occurrence is what makes them wonder why Shallan’s illusions don’t attract the screamers and why it is a “quiet” surgebinding, while his is “loud”.
Oh and I forgot to say… Did I see how the outline has progressed up to 40%? Of course I did! I can’t wait to see the planning. Of course, I have my “wish list” and what I think is “likely”.
And I wish a lot of fun to the beta readers with Starsigth. It’ll be fun to read this one next fall or next Christmas, if I make it a tradition :-)
“Out of the blue”
I see what you did there.
So, was Gavilar gathering gem-trapped Unmade and storing them in the palace?
@1 while you’re right about proper modern underwear not being much of a thing back then, I think even a Vorin woman would be more concerned about showing a group of men her uncovered crotchcrotc her uncovered safe fingers. Since she doesn’t bring up the crotch, I have to assume there was something covering it.
@@.-@ I believe the point you make, and that Scath elaborates on, shows that it isn’t the trapped “lesser” spren being detected, but the use of surges that is being detected. And, apparently fabrial surges (read: magic) is always loud – perhaps because it does rely on a more crude “bonding” both with ‘lesser’ spren and without the human element.
I actually always liked Elhokar, even before he showed any signs of being anything but spoiled and self-interested.
This chapter was hard to read because I felt so horrible about Shallan. She is in so deep that stabbing herself just to test a theory seems like a good option. And that comment about neither Veil nor Shallan being real is heartbreaking to read.
I find that the structure of Oathbringer works well for me. While much of Shallan (and some of Kaladin’s) arcs are painful to read, I find it is due to the characters’ suffering and my sympathy for them rather than miscalculations on Brandon’s part.
I get where the Shallan hatred comes from but I still enjoy her character. Reading her in these books was similar to reading Kaladin’s storylines in the first two -it can be painful and frustratingly repetitive, but overall is extremely realistic. So many books throw a character with little experience into the middle of everything, and they somehow become experts in one book. I love that these characters develop slowly, that sometimes they go one step forward and two steps back, because I think it eventually makes them much stronger characters. Shallan tends to make the dumbest mistakes, but I think it makes sense. Most of our characters were raised from birth to handle some form of responsibility or power. Even Kaladin had served in the army and led troops by the time we met him. Shallan had lived an incredibly sheltered life and was book smart and plucky, but didn’t have much else going for her. Considering that, she’s grown a shocking amount in the last few books, out of necessity. But it doesn’t surprise me that she makes so many mistakes when it comes to leading her crew, or working in a team.
I am also very curious to learn more about the corrupted spren. I feel like there’s a lot we’re missing by not knowing, for example, why some are corrupted while others aren’t. Same goes for the role of the unmade in the rest of the series. I have a feeling they might have a role to play in taking down Odium. Like the unmade like Sja-Anat, who are actively fighting back, and even those that work towards Odiums goals but don’t have the presence of mind to actually decide to help him. I’m wondering if Shallan and whoever else has been studying them might realize they could be used against him.
Did we ever get a confirmed answer as to why the Voidspren and Fused confiscated all of the fabrials? I suspect that it is because the Fused view the fabrials as a weapon that would put them at a disadvantage in the fight against humans. I wonder if there is something in the body makeup of the Singers and Listeners that prevents them from using fabrials? I do not think the Voidspren object because they are trying to free all spren from the the oppression of humans. We see later in OB that Fused have no trouble killing sapient spren who oppose or get in their way.
Alice: I think the title “Research” is in the context of reconnaissance. The discussion with the H&W is a form of reconnaissance. Shallan equates reconnaissance as a type of research.
To be clear. While Shallan has in the past engaged in self-destructive practices (or at least a high level of disregard for her own well-being), her actions in this chapter are not because of such self-destructive tendancies. She is trying to get some spren to appear (shame spren and pain spren).
Alice, Aubree & Lyndsey: I disagree. I do not think Pai was under the influence of Ashertmarn or any other Unmade. I just think that is the type of person who she naturally was. She was one of those souls who was a crusader for the causes she believes and support.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Just for the record, I pictured Shallan as sitting with her skits puddled up around her, not with her below-waist anatomy exposed
I’d have to say yes because Glys shows no sign of reverting. Of course it could be different for non-sapient spren.
We know that part of the pre-Recreance job of Lightweavers was specifically to inspire the other Radiants. I think “other Radiants” is key–both Elhokar and Vashnah were demonstrably on their way to being Radiants.
#5, @Gepeto:
I personally enjoyed the Shallan chapters, but I do think one thing that made the middle difficult reading was how Kaladin and Shallan spent so much time on solo sidequests.
@13: This is exactly it. Based on my non-scientific personal observations, the readers who developed a natural sympathy to Shallan had no issues with her narrative. Unfortunately, also based on my non-scientific personal observations, to be enjoyed Shallan’s narrative needs the readers to have this emotional connection with the character as it is disconnected from the actual action. It doesn’t have an external driver which would make it interesting to those struggling to appreciate her and/or understand her. It doesn’t drive the action in any manner which is significant. Shallan’s arc, mostly in part 3, falls down onto readers wanting to read this inner introversion featuring her fracturing herself, hating herself and being very confused. The miscalculations, if miscalculations it was, was assuming the readers wanted to read such a strong focus on such an inward arc having such a limited impact onto the overall narrative also happening not to offer a particularly strong resolution.
A counter example would be Dalinar. Readers do not need to like nor to feel sympathy with his character to appreciate his chapters because they are filled with world-building elements and Cosmere related information. They also wrap up in a very memorable climax. Even readers who find Dalinar boring and/or unsympathetic are able to appreciate his entire arc because of those moments, because it was carefully intervened with the main narrative.
Shallan’s character doesn’t have this connection within her arc. She doesn’t have a strong resolution and her mixing up within herself is not a narrative driver. Hence, either readers liked it for what it was or they thought it was slow going and wished there had been less of her.
My personal thoughts are Shallan’s narrative might have been better received if the focus on it had been smaller, if it had been less confusing (what are Veil and Radiant exactly) and if it had concluded with a definite resolution instead of, well, paddling still in the unresolved undefined unknown.
Of course, those thoughts are to be taken by a grain of salt. I am merely sharing my personal observations. I am not attempting to speak for the fandom at large, but I have read a lot of critics over Shallan’s character. I also do am of the opinion the overall pacing of Oathbringer is not great.
@16: Yes. That. Both Shallan and Kaladin’s arc aren’t external enough. They are very inward and they come at the same time as Dalinar’s also very inward arc, but we are reading epic fantasy where action should happen. Our characters are on a mission, but all the time we have with them is spent on them rehearsing inner issues. For readers who have less interest in those or who felt they were starting to get repetitive, Part 3 can be hard to get through.
A majority of t the conflicts, in Oathbriggner, were internal with little or no external component and when conflict have no external component, it slows down the narrative, it makes it less engaging. Of course, many readers did not mind it and found it engaging enough, but I find myself thinking this section of the book tedious to read. I don’t mind reading an internal arc, I love internal arc, but it has to have a purpose, a point, something and it also needs to have an external component.
In Kholinar, I wanted to hear out about their plans, their actions more than Kaladin eating stew and Shallan pretending to be Veil, but others millage definitely vary.
@10 nightheron
I do know it was confirmed that Gavilar had multiple spheres that gave off that kind of light. Now whether that meant he was gathering unmade and storing them all at the palace I have no idea.
@12 whitespine
Honestly I think this was a way of doing an info dump about radiant abilities without going overly into detail. Basically I theorize the illumination surge has a natural copper cloud effect in that it cannot be detected by other magic systems. The screamers seem to be doing a bronze seeking effect. Whenever kinetic investiture is used, they are alerted and zip right to it. I think there is something innate about illumination where it does not trigger this response.
@13 ladyrian
Well said. I agree. Brandon really makes you feel for the characters, and feel their pain as they experience it.
@14 segasauruss
Again, well said and I agree. The realistic nature of what these characters experience and go through is what draws me into these novels time and again.
Totally feel the same way about the corrupted spren. So many questions! Renarin is a huge mystery that I cannot wait to find the answers to!
@15 AndrewHB
My assumption is that it was to prevent communication (spanreeds), and resupply (soulcasters) to further weaken the city for the taking. I do not think there would be anything that would prevent a singer from using a fabrial, but that is just my own opinion. Don’t have anything specific to point to to back that up. They also have no problem grabbing shardblades and shardplate, so I wouldn’t see a problem with fabrials. Then again it could be they are just trying to deprive their enemy of resources.
I agree that it does not seem to be Pai that was under the influence, but I do think Aesudan was.
I’m wondering if the Everstorm allows Odium or the Unmade to communicate more directly in the same way that the Stormfather was, at least originally, only able to communicate with Dalinar during a highstorm.
I think this statement is basically accurate. Shallan created a “Brightness” persona back when she was a child in order to survive in her father’s household. It is the one that does everything “proper”. She only started getting away from that personal when Jasnah took her on.
@19 RogerPavelle
Hmmm, interesting. The stormfather also did say he could only report on what he could see as the storm. Perhaps the Everstorm also has this limitation? That would explain why Odium would need spys within Urithiru, Kholinar, and Thayla.
Hmmm, also interesting. Potentially the only “real” Shallan we will get to see is when we get a flashback that shows her when she bonds Pattern for the first time. The “Shallan” preceding the death of her mother.
I had a Sunday School teacher who actively encouraged her students to doodle. Ever since I’ve found that when I’m taking notes or otherwise learning through audio/visual means, it helps to draw sketches and whatnot.
Regarding if Shallan was deliberately shaping Elhokar or simply drawing him, do we know if she realizes that she can change people deliberately? She clearly knows she can do it with herself, or at least she knows that she can generate the appearance of things for herself through her art, but how much does she actually know about what she is doing? My impression is that she draws people as she sees them, by which I mean that she picks out admirable qualities (Elhokar’s leadership as he has been demonstrating it) and then draws an idealized version of that aspect of the subject. This in turn incidentally amplifies that ideal within the subject, giving them a push toward fulfilling their potential in that area. She sketches pretty much everything, so I’m content to think that at this point she isn’t intentionally changing people.
@21 Porphyrogenitus
Don’t mean to spam responses, but that is a very interesting thought. Personally I think there is a divide between actively and intentionally. I think Shallan is actively choosing to draw certain individuals in an ideal fashion. She does not draw everything and everyone in that light. We see her do so with particular individuals. Now I do not think she draws them as such with the intention of inspiring/changing them. I think she actively sees something good in others worth bringing out, and that comes out in her drawings, which as a by product of lightweaving, actually does help them grow. So basically I agree and disagree? I agree she is not intending, but I think it is something she is choosing to do. She just does not necessarily consciously realize she is doing it.
“She ended up sprawled on the floor, skirts up about her waist—and she wasn’t even wearing the leggings today. Her safehand bulged out from between the sleeve buttons, poking into the open right in front of not just the king, but Kaladin and Adolin.”
Yeah… I was like… uhhh, waaaaaaht ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Lightweavers have stealthy powers that are difficult to sense because it would be bad for a spy if it was obvious what they are doing. Kaladin has a flashy power that is obvious (it is difficult to hide when you are flying as long as people look up). It could also have to do with Cultivation powers that are slow and subtle and Honor that is about public image.
maybe its that the surge of manipulating light, is not as world changing as say, manipulating gravity? Like the stormlight when used for lightweaving doesnt do much in the cognitive realm, but gravity manipulation does, so the spren can sense windrunners way easier than lightweavers when they use the surges
@24 Birgit
My thinking exactly. Lightweavers need to be able to hide otherwise their powers would be useless. Interesting theory on the origin being them being closer to cultivation than honor. Hmmm.
@25 smaugthemagnificent
Hmmmm, but isn’t how you perceive something effects the cognitive realm? So seeing an illusion of something not really there?(I know what I say is stretching things, just throwing thoughts out there) Though if your theory is correct, soulcasting must make the screamers go nuts (that is why they were hiding in the aluminum lined caves after all right?)
Steven @3 – I think part of the point is that Shallan is not a good spy. Not yet, anyway. She has no idea how to function as part of this team, so she just does her own little thing without being aware of how it might affect the team as a whole. She’s very young for the level of responsibility she’s acquired – one of only a few known Knights Radiant in a time when humanity is under attack. Her only previous experience with being “needed” was to keep her family together, and there was not a one of them she dared trust with anything important. She hasn’t even got the minimal level of social training that would help her understand how to be part of this kind of mission.
Also, yes, she eventually shows her drawings to the others, but they can see the spren for themselves, too.
Nazrax @@.-@ – He will test it in an upcoming chapter, or at least refer to having tested it. All we know now is that a truespren taking sword or spear form doesn’t draw the voidspren; we don’t know what it is that does draw them.
WinespringBrother @9 – Lol. I didn’t even notice it. Now I need to know if she did that on purpose.
nightheron @10 – I… don’t think he had a bunch of Unmade trapped. That seems a bit much, since there are only 9 of them altogether, and he was pretty cavalier about offering one to Eshonai. I would suspect they were more likely voidspren who, like Ulim, had somehow gotten off Braize and to Roshar before the binding was completely broken. I’d like to think it was Fused, but I don’t think they were loosed enough for that.
I could, of course, be completely wrong on this.
stegasauruss @14 – “So many books throw a character with little experience into the middle of everything, and they somehow become experts in one book.” Exactly. While I understand that people sometimes want the book characters to just get over it and move on, they would be so unrealistic if they could do that. I think that’s why the pacing worked well for me; it showed not only what they were doing, but who they were becoming, however slowly and painfully.
I like the theory of turning more than just Sja-anat to fighting against Odium. I wonder if even Ba-Ado-Mishram might do that; she “usurped” one of his powers earlier, so while I’m not sure I’d trust her very far, she might not be all that loyal to Odium.
Carl @16 – “I think “other Radiants” is key…” I don’t think she’s limited to other Radiants or proto-radiants; we have no indication that Bluth was any such thing. Gaz, maybe; Vathah, maybe, now; Elhokar, certainly. My suspicion is that she can affect non-Radiants, but that her arts have more effect on those who are, or are developing, Nahel bonds.
Porphyrogenitus @21 – We are not alone! :)
I don’t think Shallan has realized yet that she can actually, actively change people. She thinks of it as a way to let them see themselves as they could be, which is a significant aspect of what she does. I don’t think it’s occurred to her that her power is helping that along in magical ways as well as psychological, if that makes sense. I hope she finds out soon!
hmm, it was said in the in world book Words of Radiance that the lightweavers, before a battle, did something that bolstered the men, such that they won the battle, we dont know what they did that somehow changed the people and other radiants, but this might be part of it. it was an epigraph if anyone knows what im talking about.
I may be misremembering, but I thought Shallan said that neither Veil nor Brightness Radiant were the real Shallan. That is actually true.
@15: Agreed twice over. I took Shallan’s self-injury and self-humiliation to be mere research methods by the breed of scientist who uses themself as a test subject, and rather endearing. And I don’t think Ashertmarn was influencing Pai. As a longtime Ardent in the Devotary of Denial, she was basically his sworn enemy, though she didn’t know it. It’s not necessarily unnatural to denounce a high authority’s immorality, even at the cost of one’s life. Mind you, non-corrupted people might also execute such a dissident, or engage in riots sparked by such an execution. Bah. We don’t get to blame Unmade for peoples’ behaviour in our world.
I didn’t remember that some other spren were also non-corrupted, so on a reread I thought the normality of the hungerspren might have something to do with the presence of Ashertmarn, who could be considered an uber-hungerspren (not to be confused with a LiftLyft-hungerspren *giggle*).
In this and the precious books, I’ve tended to find Dalinar boring when he wasn’t repulsive. He just hangs out with interesting characters. I didn’t always find Shallan admirable as a person, but have seldom if ever found her boring or unenjoyable to read about. Not even when she was feeling/being lovey-dovey toward Adolin, behavior that usually irks me, because she seasoned it with delightful snark.
I didn’t find it weird or subtextual that she included Kaladin when enumerating the men who witnessed her deliberate wardrobe malfunction. He’s a man, and one she’s had some sort of emotional connection with, possibly some attraction too. But yeah, she didn’t include all of the men in the room, so I dunno.
“I promise to back off quickly if my gut tells me something is happening.” Hahahahaha. Girl, you’re not among the many people in this city who are being malevolently manipulated by their “gut” in one way or another, be it the spren of gluttony or the spren who gets consumed. *continues giggling*
@30: May I ask why you found Dalinar repulsive? Boring, yes, some readers (a minority of them) do find him boring, more static and not as interesting as a perspective character, but repulsive? After OB, yes, another minority of readers do feel this way, but before? I am just curious.
I have always loved Shallan’s character. It is her arc in Oathbringer I struggle with, but despite this, I still find she is the most interesting of the three main protagonists. She has so many things going on around her: the Ghostbloods, the secrets within her family, her relationship with Adolin, with Jasnah, the hunting for the Unmades (was not my favorite part in OB, but it has potential for future books). Every arc she has gotten, so far, had been a novelty, different from the previous ones whereas Kaladin/Dalinar arcs tend to be more similar going from one book to the next. I don’t necessarily find her admirable, but she’s usually interesting… when she isn’t Veil. When she is herself.
@31: I tend to get repulsed by scenes of battle and/or slaughter,* so I really disliked reading the scenes of Dalinar as a Thrill-filled killing machine, on the Shattered Plains in the previous books as well as his flashbacks here. The flashbacks of his contempt for Evi and nearly everything else except battle just added to it. He’s becoming a better person, but not in a manner I found very relatable or interesting. I disliked reading about Szeth’s assassination sprees nearly as much, despite his lack of pleasure in them, and was disappointed to find him alive at the end of WoR. Szeth has stopped that job and taken up with an interesting bunch of people (sword included) since then, so I’m now fine with his survival.
*Yes, they’re very common in fantasy and I read it a lot of it anyway. I put up with battles (and romance and politics) in fantasy books for the sake of their vividly-imagined settings, creatures, characters etc. The way some readers put up with things I love, like travelogues or purple prose.
@Alice, a very trivial point: Vathah (whose name I butchered) is a Radiant. He is not a Knight Radiant.
Radiant is just short for Knight Radiant.
This part of the book is boring as hell. The situation itself is interesting but it’s written like almost nothing happens. Kaladin and Shallan just hanging around and…nothing. It could focus more on Elhokar, it could focus more on showing the situation as a whole. No, it’s just about Kaladin and Shallan doing nothing. This part proved me once again what a static, boring, and overly bad character Kaladin is. He doesn’t change, he’s not interesting, his thought aren’t interesting. He’s another generic fantasy character, annoying and boring. Shallan is OK, but her story could be much more interesting. There’re no things for her to doing here.
Easily the weakest part of the book for me (also Shadesmar). Dalinar’s chapters saved it, but this Kholinar part failed, mostly because of boring characters.
And I don’t get all Shallan hate that is especially strong on reddit. Yes, she could be done better, but Kaladin is much worse character than her. She is more refreshing (not as refreshing as Dalinar, but he’s hard to beat) than “Attack of the Clones” aka characters like Kaladin. I can’t even name any unique personality trail of Kaladin and what makes him different than all other fantasy characters, that’s how one-dimensional and generic he is.
Shallan was wearing some sort of “underthings” (and little else) in the early-ish OB scene when Adolin accidentally walked in on her when bringing her food. I don’t remember the details, but I think there was something like a shift. She flipped out and hastened to very thoroughly cover her safehand, more concerned about that than revealing anything else.
Edit: I checked the scene in Chapter 13. Shallan is initially said to be wearing a “nightgown,” but she an Adolin later refer to her “shift,” which she hastily covered with a dress after covering her safehand. So I don’t know exactly what that garment is, and in either case we don’t know what, if anything, was covering her un-legginged nether regions under her skirt in this scene.
I believe this chapter and indeed most of Part 3 is a sort of trial run for the apocalypse. Brandon is good about showing character development in realistic ways and part of that is showing character failings. Nobody gets a passing grade in the Kholinar expedition because although these guys are capable and show much promise they are thrust into a situation they were in no way ready for.
Shallan will one day be excellent at espionage. She ain’t there yet. Her social skills are horrible, understandably so given the toxic environment in which she was raised. She’s never been a team player and her formal education as a scholar doesn’t lend itself to teamwork either. This experience will help her in later endeavors but we had to see her fail.
Kaladin is a natural leader. He has lead troops in battle. He’s excellent at team building. But he is a tactician, not a strategist. And he’s never lead a raid of this type. Lastly, he’s always been a cog in the machine who operates with a superior officer and a clear chain of command. He may never be the ideal leader for the type of mission they are on but he can do better than he showed on this mission. The experience will help him later and will probably help him to be better at the missions he actually is suited for.
Adolin has many skills that are beneficial for a mission of this sort and to be fair he was the one to pull everyone’s collective fat outta the fire. But he lacks confidence in himself because he isn’t Radiant in a world of Radiants. Seeing more of the underpinnings of Roshar as well as his growing bond with Maya should help him realise his usefulness to a team like this.
Elkohar has the most training and experience of them all. Of the 4 he came closest to a passing grade. Of course he ran a country; a small group should have been easier than breathing for him. He needed the training on how to rule effectively and to operate without a Blackthorn-sized safety net. His progress was astounding. Unfortunately he wasn’t able to show his work(fuck Moash!).
This is the middle section of the middle book of a 5 part arc. For Brandon part 3 is always the crushing loss part. So this isn’t surprising for me that this is probably the most depressing section ever.
On a different topic, some of these Unmade seem not to pack much of a punch when it comes to supernatural mayhem. Moelach and Sja-Anat specifically need to have more going for them to be scary. The lore tells us that they’re frightening but one makes you speak in poetry and soliloquy before death and one makes the spren look weird. There’s gotta be more to it. I’ll add Chemorash to this. She’s so scary nobody even knows what she does? An Unmade that people get mixed up with a Bondsmith spren? We obviously need more info.
@33 – Vathah is not a Radiant. He’s a squire. Radiants are bonded with a spren.
Minor point–Kharbranth isn’t the only place Shallan has experienced plumbing. Sebarial had plumbing in his manor at the warcamps. I think that Shallan just really likes plumbing, and it’s still new enough to her that she makes a big deal about it every time she happens across it (she’s also gone fairly long stretches without it in between each occasion that she’s had access to running water).
@32: Thank you for expanding on your thoughts. I can understand why battles can be upsetting for some readers. I did not personally mind the battles within the previous books nor do I mind Dalinar/Adolin killing during warfare even if this warfare seemed pretty unwarranted. In the case of Dalinar’s character, I just found him boring. I have always found his relationship with others and the things which happened around him were more interesting than his individual voice, so you aren’t the only one who feels this way. I never found him repulsive though, but I struggle to like him after Oathbrigner. I did not appreciate the mindless killing, the love of killing, the drunkenness and how he treated his wife and sons. Those were tough pills to swallow.
I used to literally hate Szeth. If you read my comments, back in the WoR re-read, I have said as much. I hated him and I had zero interest in reading more about him. I couldn’t relate to his narrative where he felt he needed to kill so many people because of a rock. I will however admit he has grown on me within Edgedancer and Oathbringer. Now the craziness has passed, I found myself enjoying his character more and more. Of course, I would criticize the fact he was chosen to become a Radiant, given his track record, I would criticize the fact Nale chose him specifically, but at least I have come to enjoy his voice. The insight on the workings of the order which has never disbanded was also quite interesting to read. So while I don’t care for him specifically, he does have a few interesting things going on. How other Radiants will treat him will also be interesting to read in SA4.
@38: Great analysis. I agree with the points you have raised.
In Adolin’s case I would add it isn’t just a matter of self-confidence, it is also a matter of him not seeing his own worth. The only skill he deems he truly possesses is dueling which he later dismissed as being a by-product of owning a Blade. His entire definition of self exclusively passes through how he compares himself to Dalinar (always to the negative). He doesn’t think himself a capable leader and he isn’t a natural one, he doesn’t have Kaladin’s charisma nor is he a natural magnet. He’s good at taking charge though, but he is not seeing it.
Good words for Elhokar. He did do well. I wished we had seen more of him before he died. I really wanted to read the Lighteyed party they all went to.
And yes, Shallan is inexperienced and doesn’t know how to work in a team. She is a bad leader, she expects herself to know everything, to do everything by herself without needing to share her plans before hand. It baffles me more experienced men such as Adolin blindly trusts her. I guess his lack of self-confidence runs deep if he thinks everyone else are better than him at everything.
Kaladin, I find, is a good inspiring figure. He is a good trainer, he good recruiter, he good leader of a group of people outside missions and battles. Windrunners are supposed to be scouts and not fighters, so I have faith he’ll find a more suitable role for himself within the future books, one where he will not need to be in the thick of it being unable to reconcile his oaths with reality.
On the side note, I think Brandon could have pulled out more of an ambiance in Kholinar, a greater feeling of doom and of desperation. I find much of it is lost due to the strong focus on Shallan and Kaladin’s inner issues.
I find it odd that people do defend shalla’n’s character not changing since Words of Radiance but expect kaladin to change every single book. He has had this hiccup of “not being able to save everyone” since not just the first book, but his very own flashbacks. Liran’s message of “you cannot save everyone, you have to grow callouses” is true even to this day, and why he cannot say the fouirth words at the end of the book. Also, I do not find Dalinar himself boring, though his visions were always the more tedious of his chapters, as I did like his struggles of trying to get the high princes to do pretty much anything, his frustration to me is real.
@42 I don’t see how you can add Dalinar’s battle lust and drunkenness from this book as a reason to hate the dalinar character now, as those were part of his flashback, and that he’s clearly changed from that time. He HAS been a better father to Renarain since the flashbacks, in way of kings, one of his biggest regrets about almost dying is failing Renarin. And every time the thrill had come back to him during Way of Kings, he got sick after that, so I don’t see how someone can find him repulsive when he fails to relapse back to the Blackthorn.
@28 smaugthemagnificent
You are correct. For reference I quoted it below
Words of Radiance page 547
“Yet, were the orders not disheartened by so great a defeat, for the Lightweavers provided spiritual sustenance; they were enticed by those glorious creations to venture on a second assault”
@32 AeronaGreenjoy
I know you have said you do not enjoy romance parts of books, but have you read Name of the Wind? There are some corny parts in there, but the prose is the purplest I have ever seen. The only author I have seen beat Rothfuss at this is Kate Griffin. Every description in Kate’s book read like poetry. The plot can be difficult to get through at times, but form is definitely there. So if you are interested, there are two authors that could be right up your alley. Hope you enjoy!
@38 EvilMonkey
I agree. The scenes in Kholinar, and the scenes with Moash leading up to the city are meant to show how the world is starting to fall apart. It doesn’t have to be a giant monster smashing buildings (though we get that later), or a meteor falling to the planet to cause the collapse of society. You just need the fear of the unknown. So many things are happening that people just don’t understand, and that breeds fear. Not to get overly jediy, but fear does lead to anger, which leads to hate, which leads to suffering which I feel is exactly what we are seeing here.
I also agree with Shallan, Kaladin, Adolin, and Elhokar we are seeing a progression. If our fledgling radiants exemplified all things there order did from the get go, then what would be the point of the oaths? Some people do not feel Lift fits the edgedancers for this reason. I think she is growing into the order. She is learning these things and swears the oaths. All these characters are human, and honestly I love them for that.
I think as the war progresses we will see more and more why the Unmade are such fearsome foes. I think so far we have had barely a taste. Can’t wait to see it start to ramp up!
@40 Austin
I agree. We never see Vathah with a spren when he starts using illusion, so I do think it is safe to say he is a squire.
@41 DanielClouser
I agree, I feel it is the novelty that is causing her to react that way.
My theory of the corrupted spren when I first read about this was that the spren themselves were not affected, but whatever mechanism that summons them to the physical world was being corrupted for those who were affected by the Unmade. I thought it might give us a clue as to who was being manipulated. And since Shallan summoned corrupted spren following her little stunt with the scissors, that kind of confirmed it in my mind. I don’t think anything ever comes of this, however. Still need to know more in order for that hypothesis to pan out.
Oh I agree with @36…For me Kaladin’s chapters (after Way of Kings) were the weakest part of those books. They are too…repetitive I’d say. I started to like Shallan in the second book, but in this book I didn’t like the whole “false personalities” thing. I hope real Shallan will come back soon.
And Dalinar…well, he’s my favorite. LOVE his character in every book, and Oathbringer made me love him even more. Probably the most sympathetic character I ever seen…It’s sad that Brandon isn’t going to write more of him.
@46 kelevra,
Dalinar will still be in book 4 and 5, as well as potentially around in 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10. He will just step back a little bit in 4 for Venli to shine a bit. So you will still get to read him. Don’t be sad yet! lol
@43: Characters speak differently to different readers and readers aren’t all going to be interested within the same narratives. Yes, I do find Dalinar’s present day narrative on the boring side of things. It has been the case since WoK. I enjoy reading how he relates to his children more than I enjoy his endeavors to “unite” or his inner train of thoughts. I just don’t relate to his character nor do I find his inner struggles as interesting as the ones other characters have. I don’t like reading politics for the sake of politics, I only enjoy it whenever there is backstabbing and/or high drama. Dalinar’s attempts at politics run rather low in terms of those, they merely relate his step by step procedure to first get others to meet with him, then to agree with him. I just don’t find it as interesting to read as other readers just like other readers probably find parts of the book I did enjoy more less interesting. Hence, for me, whatever Dalinar is doing is always less interesting than whatever Kaladin, Shallan or Adolin are doing even when they are in Kholinar or Shadesmar. This is a purely personal opinion. That’s how it goes with epic fantasy… There’s always this one character we enjoy reading less than the others. For me, it is Dalinar (and also Navani). Back in WoT, I recalled having a hard time with Rand, but I really enjoyed other characters. The same is true here.
And yes, Dalinar’s past is ample reasons enough for some readers to dislike his character. I am far from the only one who feels this way, but I am however in the minority. Yes, I couldn’t stand him when he was drunk. I couldn’t stand this “evading of reality” nor could I stand how he treated his sons. Yes, he no longer drinks, yes, he is trying to be a good father to Renarin, but by my personal estimation, he’s still a terrible one to Adolin. In the end, as a reader, I really struggled to reconcile how the in-world characters love and respect Dalinar so much with what I have read in the book. These are my personal buttons, other readers have different ones. I spoke of this several weeks ago.
The truth is some readers are going to love Dalinar, some aren’t, some are going to really enjoy Shallan, some are going to be on the fence and so on.
On the side note, it wasn’t I who said I found Dalinar repulsive. In fact, I said I didn’t find him repulsive, but I still do not like him.
On the matter of Shallan: Coming from my perspective, their ought to be reasons why her character is receiving such a negative response. As a reader, I am interested in trying to answer the “What went wrong?”, “How is it this narrative doesn’t seem like it worked all too well?”, “What is it about this narrative which readers really disliked?” and so on. I find asking and trying to answer those questions tend to generate interesting discussion.
@46: Why are you saying Brandon is not going to write more of Dalinar? I think he said the exact opposite…
@Kelevra,
:-)
Of course you agree. Kaladin is boring as hell and Dalinar is the best. This is the One and Only Truth written in metal.
And Sanderson isn’t willing to write more…yeah that sucks.
I have to say the whole Dalinar story in Oathbringer was heart-breaking for me. After spending time with him, after getting to know him better and love, seeing how he suffers and eventually breaks down was hard to read…He’s a good man, very kind, caring and honorable. His growth as a person is truly fascinating, and I absolutely don’t mind what he did or did not in the past, because he already outgrew it. The fact he outgrew it made him even better. He’s a different man now. He’s…I think Brandon made him too sympathetic. Too sympathetic to hurt like this. It was…my heart was bleeding. I don’t remember when I felt so strongly for a character if ever.
@47, 48 Dalinar doesn’t have any big nor important role to play, I think this was confirmed.
@49 Thank you. This is indeed sad.
@50 kelevra
There is a good chance we will continue to read Dalinar, so no need to get sad. I have included the WoB below. Now having said that, I am totally not getting involved in what is about to happen here. I am good. If people want to continue to talk about the chapter at hand, I will open my profile to messaging. It worked well last time. Talk to you all there!
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
I thought there was only going to be four books but then I heard you saying it was going to be ten, so…
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
It’s going to be ten but two sets of five. So book five will give you an ending.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
The end of the Voidbringers?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Well… you’ll have to see how it goes, but it’s kind of the main arc that I’ve set up for this series.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
So, are all of the characters, Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar, are they going to be in the second series?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
There will be, those who survive will be in the second one and still kind of be main characters even though they won’t get flashback sequences. But it’s going to be ten years later, so it’s going to be something a little different. But don’t expect their character arcs to be complete even if the kind of plot setup that I’ve started will be.
@48: Can you produce Brandon’s exact words which allow you to conclude Dalinar no longer has a role within the series? Where was this confirmed? Is there a WoB attached to this affirmation? Because there needs to be one.
I need to ask because, all the WoB I have personally seen say the exact opposite. While it is true Brandon did say Dalinar was going to take a step back within book 4, he said he was one of the focus characters within book 5. He said that book would have “a lot” of Dalinar. This being said, yes there were readers who were very disappointed in hearing Dalinar wasn’t going to be the focus on the next two books as well, usually readers who misunderstood the book structure Brandon is playing with. However no where did Brandon say Dalinar was no longer relevant within the narrative. Of this I am convinced.
So unless there are official direct words from the author which stipulate Dalinar is indeed no longer getting a narrative, thus nullifying the already existing words of Brandon which states the opposite, then I fear we are all going to have to RAFO and try not to jump to hasty conclusions.
@52 I don’t think we saw different “interviews” with Brandon. If Dalinar’s little role is the same role he had in the second book, I’m not sure I want to continue. I think this series reached the point where I can’t enjoy it any longer. I got tired with Kaladin since the second book, he’s a very static character. I like Shallan, but don’t like how Brandon choses to develop her story. Adolin had some potential, but he doesn’t grow as a character much. I liked all of them in Way of Kings, but once we reached book three all those characters lost their charm for me. Dalinar parts was the only thing which remainds enjoyable for me. His story is the only one that still has soul, while everything else is lack of it’s own heart, of important element that makes characters work (for me). Without Dalinar’s parts there’s nothing left for me in those books I’m afraid…
Thanks for the quote @Scáth your the best researcher here!
@54 smaugthemagnificent
Aw thanks! Glad to help!
@53: I am sorry to hear this. No one knows what Dalinar taking a step back entails in terms of his overall narrative. As far as I am aware, Brandon never said anything in terms of word count, he used very subjective wording which leaves a lot of room for interpretation.
Brandon has once said, sometimes, not giving a character viewpoints serve to enhance this character so while Dalinar may not get as many individual viewpoints as you wish, it may not mean he won’t have a strong presence in the book.
Of course, I can’t say if you will enjoy the next book or not. I do however understand how it feels not to see your favorite character getting the page time you wish he had. My favorite character is Adolin. He is never getting even a fifth of Dalinar’s page time, he is never getting a focus book nor a main protagonist narrative. He is basically one of the only named character of importance who is not getting the “star treatment”. It has taken me a long time to accept these were the author’s wishes and that maybe if the character got more page time, he’d stop feeling so refreshing, at least to me.
The same may be true for Dalinar or not. I can’t say. I can however say I once toyed with the idea of not reading Oathbringer because it wasn’t going where I wanted it to go. I am glad I chose to RAFO instead as even if I was disappointed with some of the choices the author made, I still had lots of enjoyment reading this book.
So I hope you find enjoyment within the rest of your journey, no matter where it may go.
@51 Scath – from the WOB – THOSE THAT SURVIVE – I suppose we don’t if that was a statement about all the current characters or just the 3 that were called out?
@57 goddessimho
If prior WoB are any indication, then I think it would be all characters as he referenced not all characters surviving to the back half regarding renarin in the past, and it was proven regarding eshonai.
edit: WoB
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
The second set of the Stormlight Archives. Is that the same characters? Or different ones, like you did with Mistborn?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
They are same characters, but we’re gonna see a few main characters fade to being secondary characters. The ones that survive. And we’re gonna see a few minor characters fade to be… The structure of the Stormlight Archive is: one flashback sequence per book, and a focus on one of the Orders of Knights Radiant per book, and I’ve already announced who these all are, though I have secrets <that pertain to> them. Our next two books are Eshonai and Szeth. But, of course, Eshonai is dead. We’re gonna see flashbacks from her viewpoint that inform our “now,” but I haven’t promised that these characters all live. Does that makes sense?
But our back five are Lift, when she’s grown up. It’ll be about ten years later. I haven’t gotten the exact date yet.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
Is she alive, or a grown-up ghost?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
If she survives! It will be Lift, Renarin, Taln, Ash, and Jasnah. So, yes, your main characters… some of them are main characters. People who aren’t on that list will still… some of them will have big chunks of the stories. Just like you will notice that there’s a big chunk of Kaladin in Book 4, even though it’s Eshonai’s book. So, that will happen. But I’m not making any promises about who survives and who doesn’t.
What I really also wanna do is, like… the big epic fantasy series. I have an advantage over Robert Jordan in that I’ve read Robert Jordan. And I can see the structure of this, and say, “What can I do to create the structure of a big epic that will have a lot of the things I love about a big epic but avoid some of the potential pitfalls.” And I feel that one of those is beginnings, middles, and ends are really hard the longer you go in a series. And if I bring it to five, and then I take a break. And those five tell a story. And then I certainly am gonna leave some things that we start up in the next one, and do the second sequence of five. It’s just kind of how the structure of the Stormlight Archive works for me.
A given book, I usually plot as three novels. And I will do this outline of three novels, and this becomes one volume of the Stormlight Archive. Well, each of those novels has Act One, Act Two, Act Three. And then all of those combine into the thick ones that you get, and then five of those combine into an arc. And then the two books of five combine into their own arc. So, hopefully it’ll all work out. When I first pitched this to my editor back in 2003, his response was, “Wow, you’re ambitious!” And he was a little frightened when I gave him Stormlight. And then, in 2004, I pitched the whole 9-book Mistborn thing that is somehow now 13. But, yeah, so. We’ll see.
There was another WOB that stated that book 3 and 5 were switched in regards to whom the book belonged too right, Szeth was book 3 and Dalinar was going to be 5? but even thought that is the case, Sanderson did say that Dalinar would have a bit more in book 5 since that was originally going to be his?
@59 smaugthemagnificent
ask and ye shall receive
Himenss
So originally book 3 was Szeth and book 5 was Dalinar? Good that it changed…I cannot imagine book 3 without Dalinar’s flaskbacks. The story wouldn’t be so powerful.
Now I am curious, did Dalinar get his memories back in the original planning for book 3?
Brandon Sanderson
As others have theorized, this wouldn’t have worked quite the same way.
Oathbringer’s ending would still have been its ending–but we wouldn’t have had the flashbacks and some of the revelations about Dalinar’s character. It quickly became obvious to me, however, that the confrontation with the thrill, the reveal regarding the ancient Radiants, and the solidification of the new Radiants as a unified(?) group needed to all happen alongside Dalinar’s flashbacks (and his recovered memories) instead alongside Szeth’s flashbacks and his plot, a big chunk of which was moved to book five.
There’s also this WoB that says there will be a lot of Dalinar in book five:
Coming back to the discussion on the chapter.. Do we have any additional information on the cult of moments? WoB-wise I wasn’t able to dig up anything. Are those people “just” under the influence of the Unmade or more? I guess those people were mainly relevant to the Kholinar plot, but maybe we will see them again..
@61 bird
Gah this is going to drive me nuts. I could swear there was a WoB where Brandon says there was nothing magical about the cult of the moments. They were just grasping at the closest thing they could to make sense of everything, but atm I cannot find it. The problem is from what I recall, the person didn’t call them the cult of the moments. They mentioned it through description, i think they said the spren group or something. So it may take me a bit to find it.
@62 Scath
If it makes you feel better, I, too, remember that WoB but I can’t find it, either. It’s bugging me now, so I will continue to search.
@63 Austin
Lol thanks, helps me know I’m not nuts. I have found one that sorta sounds like it, so maybe I confused them, but I will keep looking. Ironically enough while digging I found a WoB regarding Lightweavers ability to cheer people up. It is in fact magical.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
I was wondering if there’s any correlation between the spren in the Axies interlude in the Way of Kings with his faces, and what Shallan does in Oathbringer when she’s going through the faces telling them it doesn’t hurt? ‘Cause it said the refugees saw her nature as a spren, and I made a connection there. Is it a coincidence?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
I will call that mostly coincidence.
Questioner [PENDING REVIEW]
In Stormlight, with Kaladin and his brother Tien, is there a connection or a reason why, whenever his brother finds a rock, that keeps coming up several times?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Yes. So, there’s a couple themes going on here. One is just the subtle theme that Tien tends to find beauty in things that Kaladin finds dull. That’s, of course, kind of the metaphor. But Tien also was a budding Lightweaver, and he saw color and light a little bit differently than other people did. And he has the same general effect that you’ll see Shallan having on people, which is how the Lightweaver views you influences a little bit more how your mood is, and things like that. And there is a magical element to that, as well. There’s both a metaphoric reason and an in-world reason.
@62+63 =D Nice to hear that even you sometimes have problems digging out WoBs. I’m ok with a “second hand” WoB in this case. It makes sense that those people are just regular nutheads that try to deal with the situation (in a very peculiar way nonetheless). Even though there is always another secret, it is also good that sometimes things are just what they seem without a secret society pulling strings or without a direct magical cause.
Lol no worries. Its also fun because then you stumble across all sorts of other WoB, like this one I never read before which is ironically perfect for today
polaristar
Not sure about my favorite scene in OB, but one I’d like to see drawn is Shallan when she’s in the midst of her “experiment” to find out what Shamespren look like after occupied Kholinar.
P.S Brandon was that scene inspired by an “fan-service comedic” moments in anime?
Brandon Sanderson
Not specifically, but perhaps unconsciously. I was simply looking for a way to make the conversation more interesting, and to remind readers that Shallan’s way of seeing the world is not always…healthy.
Ugh, can’t find it. I don’t even know what search term to try. I just went through 4 pages of the word “spren” (narrowed down from November 2017, when OB came out) and didn’t find it.
Maybe “repulsive” is the wrong word for “character who I really dislike reading about at the moment because they’re doing/thinking horrible things in an insufficiently interesting or sympathetic way.” I didn’t feel that way toward Dalinar in his present-day Oathbringer sections, but learning a person’s backstory can certainly influence one’s feelings about them. Sufficient attachment can prevent this; when reading Lord of the Rings, I adored Gollum so much that learning of his backstory and heinous acts barely diminished this love by a smidge.
@44: Yes, I’ve read all of the extant Kingkiller Chronicles writings. Too much romance and sex, too few nonhuman beings or creatures, but some quite enjoyable prose. (I don’t think romance or sex inherently diminish the quality of a book, but they tend to make me resentfully envious)
@68 AeronaGreenjoy
If you’re into purple prose, I highly recommend Janny Wurts’ Wars of Light and Shadow series. It has 10 books out, and the 11th and final is on the way. It’s one of the best constructed series I’ve ever read, with incredible plot consistency and fabulous prose. It makes Rothfuss look positively simple. There was a really good review of the series/reasons to read it early last year here on Tor that actually got me started, and it’s quickly become one of my top three series. If you’re interested…:)
@68: I find it really interesting to hear how other readers have reacted to various characters. I thought Gollum was repulsive! Boromir literally stole my heart back when I read the LoTR, such a long time ago. Ah Boromir. Why did he have to die? Bawl.
@69 – I got a headache trying to read the first book of that series. I don’t know if i would call it purple prose, but rather archaic prose or circular prose. I don’t have the patience to deconstruct just about every sentence in order to get the meaning!
@56 I don’t think I will enjoy the next book and the rest, so I do think the right decision would be stop right here. I don’t see any reasons for me or anyone who wants to follow Dalinar’s story to continue with this series. Those books stopped being enjoyable for me, but at least I had Dalinar. If I could follow his viewpoints further and have decent amount of them, I would have at least one enjoyable element worth enough to contunue with those books. But it won’t and without Dalinar there is nothing left for me in those books. Sad that he’s not among Brandon’s favoriter and Brandon doesn’t want to write more of him, but it’s his decision, I can’t change it.
@70: Gollum isn’t most peoples’ type. But I’m fine with that, because I love him possessively (no, autocorrect, I didn’t mean to type “obsessively,” though that’s also true) and I don’t want to share him, except with one or two of my friends. :-p
# 38, @EvilMonkey:
As one of those who found this whole section to drag … I agree completely with you about its narrative function, I just wish it could have been shorter, maybe swapped out for something more compelling. To spoil Mistborn stuff, I felt the same way about the “Sazed is depressed” segment there. It got repetitive and dull.
#40, @austin:
As I said, it’s a very minor point, but I disagree. Squires are by definition “radiant” (which means “glowing”).
#42, @Gepeto:
On Dalinar: I think Brandon is investigating the question: is the Dalinar who slaughtered his way across half a world the same person after his brain surgery? Can we blame the very different now-Dalinar for old Dalinar’s deeds? And then toward the end of this book, the Third Oath of the Bondsmiths answers that question: “I will take responsibility for what I have done.” Note another example of Brandon being very good at his job, as Dalinar’s amnesia about crippling the wrestler in a bar prefigures (in a flashback because he’s having fun with the structure) his amnesia about his entire marriage that comes chronologically later.
Remember that (as mentioned in another message in this thread) it is part of the Lightweaver power suite to inspire others. I suspect that in that regard, they’re like Bondsmiths–even when they don’t try, their companions are automatically influenced by them.
#72, @Kelevra:
This is literally the opposite of what Brandon actually said, as quoted above. Taking a lesser role for one book is not the same as disappearing entirely, forever.
@Gepeto 42
Shallan has earned the regard she gets. This is the woman who rediscovered Urithiru and drove off the Midnight Mother. She saved Adolin’s life twice, most of the army on the Shattered Plains and Bridge 4. She’s very good at faking competence and many of the things she does work despite her methods. It’s not surprising that a young man in awe of the power of Radiants would defer to a powered person with a good track record as far as he knows.
@72: As many have commented and throughout the numerous WoB others have supplied here, rumors of “Brandon not wanting to write more of Dalinar” are exactly what they are: unfounded rumors. Brandon has also abundantly commented on how Dalinar was one of his favorite characters. This is another unfounded rumor which is easily disapproved by numerous WoB and interviews.
Now, of course, I can’t tell you to read or not to read the next book, but I can say with a high level of certainty there will be more of him. How much of him, no one knows, this is true. However if your reasons solely are “Brandon hates Dalinar and will no longer write him”, then I think others have proven those were just baseless hearsay, nothing based on actual facts.
@73: LOL. You can keep him! But I am calling dibs on Boromir though, in my case, I may have to share him with quite a few people :-P
@75: Is post-brain surgery the same Dalinar as pre-brain surgery? Interesting question. I was recently talking to another reader and he told me how he felt the change from the Blackthorn to present-day Dalinar was too sharp and too big. Going by this logic, we could argue that yes, the brain surgery altered Dalinar in ways he couldn’t have altered himself without it. Younger Dalinar wasn’t particularly honorable nor versed on the old writing nor interested in up-holding traditions: he became this man on the Shattered Plains. It however was on his own volition. I don’t think the brain surgery was a guarantee he’d turn out for the good,
This being said, my personal answer to the can be blame present-day Dalinar for the things past Dalinar did? Yes. We can. Brain surgery or not, he did those things on his own free will. If he was influenced, at least in part, by the Thrill, the emotions he felt were his. The decisions he made were his. So is he accountable? Totally. And the fact he wasn’t made accountable for his past is one of the reasons I have disliked the character. His entire arc was about dealing with his pain, his guilt, himself. All the time I read it, I couldn’t help but ask: “What about the people he hurt?”, “What about atoning for the harm he has done?”, “Why the only pain which matters is his own?”. Granted, the book he is writing might achieve just this, so I have to be more patient with his character.
About Shallan: On a reader’s point of view, the character who’s not talking to anyone, not sharing her plans is a recurring trope which some will find tiring. So while there might be good reasons for it to happen, it easily gets old if used too often
On Dalinar’s role: Yes and yes. Just because Dalinar is not the focus character of book 4 doesn’t mean he’ll disappear from the narrative and will never see him again. If Brandon plans for Dalinar to have less page time in book 4, then it is because his character will not need more to continue his narrative. Not all character arcs require the kind of focus Kaladin and Shallan have gotten within some books. Dalinar is more stable, older and has dealt with his past demons, so yes, it may be what comes next for him won’t need the strong focus other characters have gotten. Not all character arcs are on the super long side of things and, sometimes, a shorter narrative is better, more impact-full, more powerful than a larger one..
One thing about Brandon is he tries to be fair with all of his characters, as fair as he can be given he is writing epic fantasy. He has been adamant on Dalinar being important but readers need to understand he is one important characters among many important characters. Dalinar has gotten his book. We all knew book 4 and 5 would have major viewpoint changes. So Dalinar has a shorter narrative in book 4, a big one in book 5. I honestly do not understand why this is so surprising. Kaladin and Shallan too are likely to have a short book within either book 4 and/or 5.
@77: Something must be rigged in your computer for you to always end up double posting! I see the mods haven’t managed to find what the issue was.
Yeah, you are right. I can get why Adolin is easily awe. He is impressionable. But Dalinar?
Oh. My. Stars. Would y’all stop with the “Brandon hates Dalinar and isn’t writing any more of him” trash? It’s not true, it’s obviously not true, and every time you repeat it you’re calling him a liar. Stop already.
It may well be that Dalinar got a higher word-count in Oathbringer than in any previous book or any book yet to be written. That will be true of every character somewhere along the way, so please don’t get your gitch in a twist over it. The fact is that The Stormlight Archive is not any one character’s story, the way some of his other series are. Mistborn Era 2 is arguably Wax’s story. Era 1 could be seen either as Vin’s story or Sazed’s story, or it could be seen as something bigger than either of them. The Stormlight Archive is far more the story of an entire planet, and possibly (we’ll have to RAFO) an entire system. No book in this series is ever going to focus on one character to the exclusion of all the others, no matter how popular that character is, because that would be an awful way to tell the story. We’re getting a planet-wide story through the perspective of multiple characters, because that’s the way it works. (Also: so far, no significant character has completely dropped out of the story; even though new characters move to the forefront, we’ve seen the major viewpoint characters still be… major viewpoint characters. They just have to share the time a little more.)
If you just can’t stand that kind of storytelling, then I suppose I’d have to say that The Stormlight Archive is probably not a good series for you to follow. There’s nothing wrong with preferring a character-driven story over a plot-driven story; we’re all built differently. I personally find TSA to be a wonderful blend of the two; there’s a long plot arc, with lots of smaller plot arcs along the way, and multiple character arcs interwoven with both. I love it. But that’s what TSA is, and has been from the beginning. It never was and never will be centered on a single character.
Going forward: Please stop spreading false rumors that directly contradict the author. If you don’t believe him, that’s your personal problem, but stop trying to tell everyone else that you know better than he does what he’s going to write. You’re dead wrong, and it needs to stop. Now.
Thank you Alice for those direct words.
I really don’t understand how these rumors about Dalinar can even start to exist. Many of us tried to clear up the situation by providing WoBs that prove otherwise. But I guess some – very few – readers won’t change their minds. I love the chapter-wise discussions here and I want to thank all of you for the great insights you provide. Dalinar is not even in this chapter. So let’s discuss Shallan’s craziness, Elhokar’s kinginess, Kaladin’s broodiness, and Adolin’s messed up hair <3 ;-)
I thought there’s nothing wrong in discussing the whole book. If discuss something beyond the actual chapter is forbidden here, same must be true for all of such comments, and off top discussion started a waaaaaay earlier.
@78, I never said “Brandon hates Dalinar”, I merely stated he may not be among Brandon’s favorites if he doesn’t want to give this character a bigger role and continue with him (based on his own words, I didn’t pulled it out of nowhere, someone already posted exact quotes). I got such an impression. That’s it. I don’t know why it caused strong reaction. Characters were discussed here before me, and I merely stated that Dalinar is my favorite and it’s sad for me that he won’t have a bigger role. I said nothing criminal.
I didn’t want to offend anyone. If I have done so, I apologize! Also, I didn’t mean that off-topic discussions should not be allowed. I guess nobody could adhere to such a strict rule. Just that… Well… Sometimes there are topics on which we would have to agree to disagree. And then, it might be easier to drop them or discuss them later on the books when they come into play and we all have the chapter fresh in our minds.
Brandon has said repeatedly that Dalinar is his favorite character; therefore, to claim that “he doesn’t like Dalinar as much as he likes the others” is to call him a liar. And that’s in ALL his work, not just TSA. That doesn’t mean he’ll blow up Dalinar’s role here beyond what is best for the story. We don’t know what he’s going to do – that’s the whole point.
Claiming that it’s confirmed that “Dalinar doesn’t have any big or important role to play” is in direct conflict with everything Brandon has said and is therefore another lie that should never be repeated. He will not have the spotlight to the exclusion of everyone else – that’s a given, and has been from the start. Those are not the same thing.
There’s nothing wrong with deciding that an author is taking his story in a direction you don’t find interesting; it happens to any reader from time to time. Preemptively deciding that you don’t like what he’s going to do, despite what he’s said… well, feel free, but don’t expect sympathy from the rest of us.
I think Alice has summarized it nicely: Brandon never said nor implied what some have said he has said or worst confirmed. I think ample proof was given within this thread.
Dalinar will ultimately have the role the author believes he needs to have for HIS story to reach its maximum potential, to the best of his abilities. And yeah, maybe it won’t be what some are expecting. Maybe it won’t take up as many page time as some would have wanted, but none of it means it won’t be a great arc. None of it means the author is no longer interesting in the character nor that he hates him. It may just be whatever role Dalinar will have might not just need the kind of focus he has gotten in OB. A good story doesn’t always need an exclusive focus and sometimes, third person’s perspective is more efficient than first person’s perspective. Dalinar’s thoughts may not always be the most interesting nor the most important ones to have in every given scene. It doesn’t mean his character is no longer important nor a valuable member of the cast, it just means events need to happen and not all of them are going to revolve around him. He’s also not the only character fighting for focus and, by the end of OB, it happens he has dealt with his past, found peace with himself, things neither Kaladin nor Shallan have yet achieved. That may account for a few decisions when it comes to giving focus.
As such, I too would suggest we move on.
This chapter is a really interesting one for Elhokar’s character. Prior to OB, I was most unsympathetic towards him. So while I have always been one to argue he shouldn’t become a Radiant, my main argument was he sounded too selfish for it, I never expected the denouement he ultimately got. One thing I find interesting about Part 3 (because it’s not all negative) is seeing how both Elhokar and Adolin behave now they are away from Dalinar’s influence. With Elhokar, we see him becoming more humble, his earnest side finally taking over, and his ability to think of a plan actually got the freedom to manifest themselves. With Adolin, well, that will be best discussed within the future chapters. I noted all sort of interesting things going on with his character which are easy to miss as the spotlight is never really on him, but now is not the time.
Fact however is both younger Kholin men seem to benefit from being *away*. Away from the pressure, away from the large oppressing shadow Dalinar casts on everyone close to him, away from the need to have him approve of their every decision, away from his glance., away, they can finally, perhaps, start to become themselves. Would have Elhokar managed to complete his bond with his spren had he not gone to Kholinar? Somehow, I doubt so, Brandon told us not all early bond turned into a full blown Nahel Bond. I always thought Elhokar would be such case, but going to Kholinar might have changed things for his character.
It makes me wonder about Brandon’s initial plan, back in WoK Prime, the one where he had Dalinar kill Elhokar. I’m really curious as to how this one played out.
Dalinar has such a forceful outsized presence it’s likely very difficult for anything to grow in his shade. Gavilar has been reported to be such a man as well. It’s no surprise to me that the sons of these great and terrible men would find it hard to live up to their legendary pasts. It’s often a problem in real life when the children of legendary people try to live up to their birthright. Interestingly enough, I believe this problem is a reason that most narrative fiction with a singular character focus leaves their MC without parents. Brandon chose the road less traveled indeed by introducing characters that already conquered the world and giving them heirs that have to cope with living legends. Adolin is doing better than his cousin but he has his issues as well.
@87: I agree.
I would argue Adolin fares better because he wasn’t asked to take leadership. All he was asked to do is obeying his father, voice out his thoughts, if he had any, but ultimately doing whatever Dalinar says he should do in exactly the manner Dalinar wants him to do it. Had he been put onto the throne at a young age, like Elhokar, he might have struggled as well though perhaps not with the same things. Similarly, had Elhokar been merely asked to obey orders, to do as he is told and to embrace a precise personality, he would have likely done as well as Adolin though with underlining hard to figure out issues as well.
The tragedy of Elhokar is he is living under the shadow cast by a very charismatic man (when he is not) and the one cast by a highly over-bearing uncle. In between the two if them, he doesn’t know how to behave, what to decide, whom to trust, so he ended up allowing Dalinar to make all the decisions as he seemed to know what to do. His indecision is what made him such a bad king. That and his desire to live up to the legend, to be worships for his own self, that too got in the way of him reaching his full potential as a leader which arguably was much higher than what we have seen.
Adolin’s issues are less obvious because he is basically told not only how to behave, but how to think, how to react, what to prioritize, what rules to follow and so on. He has literally zero liberties into being the person he really is, his father having decided there was only one way a man could be a good man and it was his way. Adolin is merely starting to realize this about himself and his life. Not long ago, he merely thought his reluctance over taking the leadership, him getting cold feet over thinking he might, someday, be King, was just him wanting to be young and to enjoy life. Oh, how he tried to make it be *just that*. Just immaturity. Just a desire to have some fun. But in Oathbringer he realized this wasn’t it. This was just the tip of the iceberg as the real problem is not him wanting to relax, the real problem was him ultimately failing at being who Dalinar wanted him to be. He is not this son born out of Honor who’d follow all rules and codes, prioritizing honor above all else. No. He’s just Adolin. A man who loves his family very much and is not going to allow anyone to hurt them, a man willing to take a plunge for them, no matter the cost, a man who will murder another man if it means protecting his father. He *tried* to prioritize the same things as his father, he *tried* to be the son his father wanted him to be, but murdering Sadeas made him realize he isn’t.
And now we’ll get to see where he goes from there and onward. I agree this is far more interesting than removing all parents and removing the need for children and parents to find ways to fix their relationship. Dalinar failed with Elhokar. I am keen to see if he’ll realized he is failing with Adolin too before, well, something irreparable happens. Elhokar *tried* to fix things with his uncle, but he didn’t live long enough for it to happen. Now Adolin alone is carrying the torch of the son having too much pressure and needing to become his own man despite having a greater than life father.
I do think the corrupted spren matched the changed Rhythms. But we need to remember that Spren are a reflection of sapient thoughts. With so many Parishmen and Fused around, are the spren changing to what they are focused on? Sja-anat’s is likely the catalyst for the change, but I think its at least possible that the Parishmen’s thoughts and Rhythms determine what spren change.
Also, not only are there three Shards on Roshan and associated Spren but from:
https://coppermind.net/wiki/Spren
:Spren are fragments of the powers of creation that have since then gained sentience through the influence of sapient beings on Roshar. They are vastly varied in their appearances, characteristics, and levels of intelligence. Most spren consist of the essences of Honor and Cultivation, or a mixture of both that leans towards either one Shard or the other. Spren that are attracted to emotions, like angerspren or fearspren, have more of Honor than Cultivation, and the spren that are attracted to natural phenomena, like decayspren or windspren, vice versa. Emotion spren will react to emotional Allomancy. There is also another spectrum of spren known as Voidspren that presumably consist of only Odium’s essence. Some spren predate the arrival of Honor and Cultivation to Roshar, and perhaps even the Shattering. These are Splinters of Adonalsium itself that it left behind intentionally and that have attained sentience on their own since then.”
Maybe Odium is focused on finishing off Honor focused emotional Spren?
@84, I have no idea of what Brandon is thinking or saying about Dalinar, weather or not he’s his favorite character, I can only make assumptions, and not digging into author’s interviews isn’t the same as “call him a liar”. Not even near. And much better than accuse me of saying things I’ve never said. I never said he hates Dalinar. He however did say that Dalinar’s role would be rather small. He said this and there’s nothing wrong for me or others to reflect on this. Yes, for people who care about Dalinar this is a big disappointment. But I wasn’t aware that this is impossible to discuss those books in any way which isn’t pure admiration.
@85, Oathbringer ended with a big cliffhanger for Dalinar, even if not in terms of personal story (though I disagree with this), everything else is a big mystery. Everything that happened with Dalinar is a mystery, and giving him a small role after that is an absolute deal breaker.
@90, Kelevra,
Don’t listen those who claims you don’t have anyone’s sympathy. I’ve never left any comment here before (but I follow this re-read for many months), but I logged in only to write that I absolutely agree with you in everything you’re saying. Dalinar is my favorite too, and I was extremely disappointed after knowing how small his role will be in the next book(s). I couldn’t believe I won’t read the aftermath of Oathbringer’s climax. I mean, that seemed like the most important moment in the series so far and Dalinar, who have Honor’s powers now, will be put in the background? I was so hyped after final scene with Dalinar and Odium, and now I have zero expectations for upcoming books. And I’m not the only one, I assure you. Many people I was talking to are disappointed too.
People who are pleased with Dalinar’s little role are those who don’t care about the character. People who claim his thoughts aren’t important are those who don’t care about the character. If they’re not very interested in him, of course they didn’t mind his lack of viewpoints. If their favorite character was cut down like Dalinar, they would speak differently.But people who do care about Dalinar are NOT pleased, this is true, and there’s nothing wrong with it.
So, keep in mind. You’re not the only one. If you want to talk, I know many people (mostly reddit users) who like Dalinar and who are very disappointed too. A lot of people are interested in Dalinar and strange things revolving around him. I would say this was the most popular topic of the discussion. I still can’t believe it won’t be fully explored. Needless to say, both Kaladin and Shallan were over-done in this book. Both had very little tings to do, but got so many repetitive and useless chapters anyway. If someone needed to be cut down, it’s them, not Dalinar imo. Sadly, we are reading Kaladin’s depression/Shallan’s personality disorder Archive in which all other characters aren’t important enough to get many viewpoints.
Sanderson’s own words:
“ In the original version of the book I forced Dalinar to have to kill Elhokar. I backed off from this when I rewrote the book for publication, realizing (I think rightfully) that I didn’t need to push him into that, and the story worked better if he could help Elhokar instead of destroy him.“
Dalinar helped Elhokar. End of the story.
@90: As I said, no one knows how small of a role Dalinar will get just no one knows how big of a narrative his future development will truly need. We can only speculate. This being said, assuming his narrative arc will be a disappointment and will not get the focus it needs to reach a satisfying resolution is jumping to hasty conclusions. Comment such as: “Sad that he’s not among Brandon’s favoriter and Brandon doesn’t want to write more of him, but it’s his decision, I can’t change it.” aren’t the proper interpretation of his words and that’s what others are reacting against.
You may be disappointed upon hearing Dalinar will not get a large narrative going into the next book, you may voice out those thoughts, but you can’t voluntarily misinterpret Brandon’s words to make him say what he hasn’t said. You can say the narrative you envisioned for Dalinar would require a larger focus than what Brandon seems to be willing to write, but not that Brandon is no longer interested in Dalinar and it ditching the character.
I apologize if I wrongly accused you of saying Brandon hated Dalinar, this was a leap of logic going from the quote I posted above.
I would however recommend listening to Alice wise words. Brandon is writing a story and in this story various characters are going to be important. Dalinar is one of them, but he isn’t the only one of them. Next book is likely not to focus on him, book 5 is said to be. That’s just how things need to flow for Brandon to reach the conclusion he has planned. We are here for a journey and reality is, when we have our nose stuck in those books, it is really easy to over-hype and over-emphasize a handful of given narratives by making them more important then they will be. I can’t say Dalinar is one of those cases, I haven’t read the next two books, but I can say this wouldn’t be the first time it happens.
I just want to say ‘smaller role’ doesn’t mean that any character has no role or that we will not see any character growth for them. It just means that a book is going to focus on someone else (The Parshendi for example). At the end of “Shallan’s” book, she discovered Urithiru and left that at a cliff-hanger. In “Dalinar’s” book we learned more about it. At the end or “Dalinar’s” book he seeming fused some of Honor’s power. I am sure that in “Eshonai’s” book (who is dead BTW) we will learn more about that. I trust Brandon to write a good story, which as Alice said is Roshar’s story. I don’t even refer to the books as so-and-so’s book, I refer to them as so-and-so’s flashback book, because the story is not about any of those characters in their flashback book. Those flashbacks provide additional background to the story in that book. Dalinar will continue to have a large role to play in Roshar’s story. How can he not? But we will not have more flashbacks from him nor will he be the ‘focus’ of a book. However, Kaladin and Dalinar were not the focus of book two and we got a significant portion of it devoted to both of them. If you are not happy about that, that is ok; however, I think not wanting to read the next book might be a mistake. Especially this far in advance. I would say, wait and see then RAFO.
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@67 Austin
Lol, I have a feeling what is screwing us up in finding it, is the person 1. didn’t use the actual name for the cult of the moments, and 2. didn’t use the term spren. So we have to somehow combine shallan, or veil (since she was veil a good chunk of her investigation) and some descriptor for crazy cult group this individual might have used. Lol fun fun.
@68 AeronaGreenjoy
Hmmm, then maybe Kate Griffin would be very enjoyable for you. It is an urban fantasy, but describes the city life in such a way to make it seem magical. Here is a random quote from the book to give you an idea:
“Too long, this awakening, floor warm beneath my figners, itchy carpet, thick, a prickling across my skin, turning rapidly into the red-hot feeling of burrowing ants; too long without sensation, everything weak, like the legs of a baby. I said twitch, and my toes twitched, and the rest of my body shuddered at the effort. I said blink, and my eyes were two half-sucked toffes, uneven, sticky, heavy, pushing back against the passage of my eyelids like I was trying to lift weights before a marathon. All this, I felt, would pass. As the static blue shock of my wakening, if that is the word, passed, little worms of it digging away into the floor or crawling along the celining back into the telephone lines, the hot blanket of their protection faded from my body. The cold intruded like a great hungry worm into every join and inch of skin, my bones suddenly too long for my flesh, my muscles suddenly too tense in their relaxed form to tense ever again, every part starting to quiver as the full shock of sensation returned.”
So yeah, that is the first paragraph describing a guy coming back from the dead. For someone more into magic systems and how they interact I eventually stopped reading the series (I got 4 books in), but if you are someone who loves verbage eloquently or interestingly put, I have to say Kate Griffin is your gal.
@69 zerykkai
How is the world building and magic systems? I know that is not why you originally brought it up, but I am always open to trying something new.
@71 Austin
LOL
@89 vulcronos
Interesting theory. At this time Odium does not see Cultivation as a threat. More something to clean up when he is done with Roshar, but before he leaves. We also see that Odium can get “personal” and resentful by how he played especially close attention to Taln’s temple. The one herald that continued to stymie him. So I could see Odium focusing on particular spren if it meant keeping his old foe down. I am not sure I agree with the idea that the parshmen are determining which spren change in Kholinar. I feel they weren’t in as close proximity to the city for an extended enough amount of time to accomplish that. After they take the city? Sure. But before? For me it doesn’t feel right. But I wish you luck with your theories!
Interesting that the Coppermind thinks windspren are more of Cultivation than Honor, because Syl tells us that Honorspren like her were originally windspren.
@97 Carl
I think that was based on Shallan’s conversation with Jasnah about breaking types of spren down into two types:
1. natural phenomena (wind, fire, water, gravity, etc)
2. emotions
Jasnah does comment that that is a theory and not an exact science. I do agree that it would seem natural phenomena should seem to be the purview of a shard named cultivation while emotions should be associated with honor, but find it ironic that it seems to be the reverse. Hmmmmm.
@96 Scath – re: Janny Wurts books
The magic system in the books is probably somewhere between Tolkein and Sanderson. There is definitely an underpinning to the magic in the world, but those who can manipulate it are limited in number and do so in different ways (for instance, one group forces the magic to work where another asks permission).
That said, the books are epic in scope, intricately plotted, and ones that I definitely recommend to those who enjoy that sort of series. Always with the proviso that there is one book left to be written.
@99 RogerPavelle
Thanks, I am reading the descriptions now. Might give it a shot after I read the excerpt from Amazon.
@Scáth thanks for the WOBs!
as for the Cult of Moments, i figured they were a group of people who were trying to make sense of what was happening and the unnatural darkness plus the assault on the capital, they went sort of insane, plus the heart of the revel didnt help much.
@96 – Well, I searched just about every term I can think of. “Spren,” “Shallan,” “Veil,” “Kholinar,” etc. and cannot find that WoB. Short of going through all the questions from every event in the past year, I don’t think I’m going to find it. That, or it never existed and we are just mis-remembering.
vulcronos @89 and Carl @97 – Unfortunately, sometimes the contributors to the Coppermind state their own interpretation as fact; I’ve seen this in several places.
For example, Coppermind defines the Dawnshards as “ancient magical weapons” even though there’s no textual evidence that they are actually weapons. It seems that they can be used as weapons, since they were used to destroy (i.e. make unlivable) an entire planet – but we don’t even know that they were intentionally used as weapons in that case. It could just as easily have been a great idea gone horribly wrong, which had already been fed too much power. All of which is to say, always check their sources to see if it’s backed up well, or if it’s just one person’s “logical interpretation.”
In the case of the linked article about the spren, we know that some of the truespren are more of Honor, some are more of Cultivation, and all have some of both. From the cited sources, it looks like the part about emotion-linked lower spren being of Honor and physical-phenomena-linked lower spren of Cultivation is purely speculative. (I really wish they wouldn’t do that…)
Austin & Scath – Is this what you were looking for? “This was a way of dealing with unexpected events and giving some shape to lives that had been turned upside down.”
@101 smaugthemagnificent
No problemo. I agree.
@102 Austin
Well it was a valiant effort on all sides. Maybe someone will ask again in the future with easier to search terms lol. It was worth a shot all the same. Great work.
@104 Wetlandernw
Might be, can you post the whole WoB? I tried using some of what you typed in arcanum and it didn’t come up. It does sound like it could be applicable. Was it in reference to the cult? Thanks!
Scath – here you go:
It is a WoB, in a way… It comes from Chapter 63, which I’ve been working on for Thursday. There may be more such comments coming in future chapters, but I haven’t searched.
@106 Wetlandernw
Ah, the reason I was looking for a WoB was because I wasn’t sure if this could be like the jesker mysteries (something based on magical but not magical itself). Though as I say that, the same could be said of the Passions from our earlier discussions. It is interesting to see how religions could develop in a myriad of fashions and awesome how Brandon always finds a way to sneak a new one in. Kind of makes me wonder the thought processes that caused the people of Kholinar to cling to spren? Could it be seeing the spren acting/looking different than normal? Could it be drawing on older beliefs (such as Rock’s people’s veneration of the spren) that the Vorin church could have suppressed, and in their fear they sought what they once knew? Hmmmm.
edit: thanks for the quote and looking forward to next chapter’s reading!
Ahh… Thanks Alice! And thanks Scath and Austin for your search effort. No I should read the next chapter.. More Kholinar is good. Looking forward to discussing what’s going on in the palace. But I’m not looking forward to finding out about the missing people o.O
Edit: @107 That is an interesting thought. But wouldn’t we have heard about older beliefs that are now suppressed from some POV? We already know many lores and beliefs on Roshar. Or do you mean a suppressed belief that now surfaces again by intuition of the believer? Hm.. In any way.. I think it is really interesting how the people react. They are under siege and under the influence of multiple Unmade. So at least part of their behavior might be Odium-related.
@108 bird
Well we do know the passions (thayla), and the old magic (alethi) are seen as heresy to the Vorin religion. Despite those countries being openly Vorin, people still believe in and worship the passions and old magic in varying degrees. So it wouldn’t be a stretch to me that maybe some people in Kholinar kept to some distant traditions, and began to be more obvious about it when the Everstorm came. Others seized onto those tidbits, and coupled with hysteria, the beliefs grew out of proportion and turned into an entire cult. Rock’s people’s beliefs involve worshiping spren as deities. That had to come from somewhere after all and the horneaters are descendants of human and listeners. I agree, it is very interesting to see how people handle conflict, and upset. Brandon’s worldbuilding as always is on point.
Now I’m wondering if I mis-remembered the text from the book as a WoB. Though I still swear I read something where Brandon said there was nothing magical about them…
The horneaters worshipped not the lesser spren, but sentient spren like Syl, right? But I can see how humans can highjack this belief and how the cult of moments could have been developed out of this.
Regarding Listeners/Singers and Spren.. We still do not know how their relationship pre-human invasion looked like, do we? We only know…
I’m looking forward to learning more about spren societies. Book 4 can’t come soon enough =D
@110 Austin
Lol, be careful, don’t give yourself an aneurysm.
@111 bird
Well to clarify I did not mean they got it directly from the Horneaters, I was more using them as an example. They could have a “common ancestor” as it were. Like how cats are not descended from dogs. They are descended from a common ancestor. Another example is how the Vorin religion worships the Almighty, and sees the Heralds as his messengers, but another religion worships only the heralds (blanking on the name). Yet another religion (also forgot the name) sees Jezereh as the stormfather or Almighty and worships primarily only him. So potentially there could be a belief that the humans had like the horneaters, but whereas the horneaters continued it and modified it, the humans among the alethi had it suppressed for the most part. Basically this is conjecture on coming up with reasons why a group of fearful people would focus on spren for their cult. Just a thought experiment.
Side note, I do not recall it being said Horneaters only worship sapient spren. Do you have a reference for that? Not saying you are wrong or right, just always ready to learn something new :)
I agree book 4 can’t come soon enough!
I should have noted – what Shallan thinks about them… ain’t necessarily so, right? In fact, in the beta read the question was raised whether maybe there were some real spren hiding among the Cult “spren” and making use of it somehow. That’s never been answered, that I know of. I just thought that what you were searching for sounded awfully similar to what I read yesterday! Also, even though I was the one who raised that question, at this point I don’t believe it to be so. My personal opinion, which may change as we progress through the reread, is that these are people influenced by the presence of the Unmade (I mean, three of them??) in the city, but they have no particular magical powers from any kind of spren bond. People get weird when their lives are thrown into chaos.
I just assumed the horneaters worship sapient Spren. My memory on the details of Horneater culture ist vague at best. I just thought of the scene in which Rock regarded Syl as deity and of the myth about the gods of trees, the waters, and the mountains. I should have formulated a real question when I wrote this instead of writing my assumption with a questionmark at the end ;-)
I also didn’t mean that the cultist used the horneater beliefs. I totally agree that humans might have a believe system that has the same roots as the horneaters’. Whatever a spren-related worship system may look like, the cultists took it and made something … ahm … very weird out of it.
@113 Wetlandernw
No worries. I agree. I think it is people going through trauma trying to make sense of it all, and are grasping at the closest thing they can to provide them comfort.
@114 bird
No problemo, just didn’t know if I had missed or mis-remembered something. Lol very true. I wonder how those humans will continue once the city is taken.
“Jasnah would tell her to put down her sketchpad and go sit with the others—but Shallan often paid better attention with a sketchpad in her hands. People who didn’t draw never seemed to understand that.”
This! I love this so much. I am exactly like this. Adds to the list of reasons I am actually Shallan.
@116 i hope patricide and matricide are not on that list
so, I am really lazy right now, but I’m sure if you were to look, in places that experience war such that it disrupts normal life to an extent, Cults start popping up, especially cults that go back to very base and pagan beliefs, including human sacrifice and other nasty things as peoples beliefs in the current order crumble do to it not protecting them from the horrors of war. this is all subjective and my own thoughts. so take them with a bucket of salt please.
I missed out on a really heated/interesting discussion :)
The only thing that jumped into my head (aside from also eager to learn more about the Unmade and spren corruption) is that I did not see Pai as being influenced by Ashertman. Growing up Catholic, there are various saints and figures who would denounce this kind of thing, including up to the point of death, so her actions, while ‘extreme’ in a sense, didn’t seem to require additional supernatural influence if that was already part of her personality/beliefs. Whereas Aesudan and the whole city – I don’t know how much of a bead we have on her ‘original’ personality – so who knows, maybe she was the type to execute anybody who crticiized her and tended towards hedonism in general – definitely seemed at least somewhat influenced. Or who knows, maybe she wasn’t, and then Ashertman just dialed it all up to 11 once he got there with the Everstorm.